Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Inchtones podcast. As you know, I don't shy away from any opportunity to have one on one conversations about complexity and complex theories. And you know, I've shared before about John Boyd's OODA loop and how dear it is to my special needs motherhood and how I orient to a life that I never would have chosen or had on my bingo card 10, 15 years ago. And today we're talking more about the OODA loop, but not just that Instagram sort of catch all version. And I think most people learn, you know, observe, orient, decide, act as this like tiny four step process. And I have here today Alex Vore, who's a Marine colonel and former corporate executive who wrote a book called Speed Kills and he really shows how Boyd's actual model is really messier and a lot more powerful. It's really about learning, adaptation and shaping reality through feedback and where orientation is the engine to all of that. And I know that for the mothers, caregivers and audience that I have and host my platform for, it's almost like you can't unsee it when you realize how deeply the orientation and the evolution of one's orientation is tied to special needs, motherhood and parenting. So Alex, I'm thrilled to have you here today and thank you for joining us on Inchtones.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: Thanks Sarah, I appreciate it. I have the opportunity about, oh, I don't know, a year and a half almost two years ago that it that came to me via consulting and so I joined, I joined a startup and we are building a liquid natural gas business, liquefied natural gas. And we'll be an asset based business building liquefiers. It's called company's called 1LNG and I'm working with some really talented people. We're based in Houston and yeah, it's a wonderful opportunity that I'm enjoying where I am right now.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Awesome. Awesome. So before we jump into the book, give a high level overview of the OODA loop and if you had maybe 60 seconds to correct and maybe show the complexity within OODA loop, what would you say is actually happening, especially around that orientation piece?
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Sure. Well, it is interesting and you know, you talk about how everybody, you mentioned how everybody kind of looks at a simplistic OODA loop level. A lot of people take a quick look at the model and say, hey, I've got this. But what I've said is for years and years I've had a model, I've had a copy of that OODA loop model sitting on my desk. And it's been really interesting because literally for 30 years I've been looking at it in the context of things that I've been learning, experiences that I've had, and I've appreciated it more and more. And it is a pretty complicated model. And as I've noted, I think it's a model for human and organizational activity within an environment founded on the assumption, assumption that life is inherently competitive.
And when I say that, I don't necessarily mean competitive against organizations or other people. But you're always competing, I would say, to maintain relevancy within the environment and within an environment that's constantly changing.
And so that's what the OODA loop model is. And most people, as you've noted, look at the four steps where the acronym comes from, which is observe, orient, decide and act.
But there's other pieces to that. Feedback is an example. And then implicit guidance and control, which are also part of the OODA loop, are what really to me, they're the parts that are the most interesting. Now if you're just running through the four steps without bringing feedback into the equation, then you're not changing your orientation, you're not updating yourself within the environment. And so the feedback is critical. And if you don't incorporate implicit and guidance and control, which amongst people, I think implicit guidance control is your subconscious at work.
And subconscious is where you do 80% of your thinking. There's only 20% or so that's conscious that runs through the center of the loop, the explicit path, I call it through the loop.
That's the other thing that's really interesting because you're doing things on a daily basis without explicitly thinking through that particular process. It's just, it's automated actions, and then it also is automated shaping of the observations you're making, the information that you're seeking, and the data that you're seeking to bring into your model. So it's, it's a very complex model when you, when you appreciate it, and it is designed for a world that's inherently complex. So I'm sorry, go ahead.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: No, I was just gonna, I, I, I was just gonna go off of what you're saying with the taking in the new information in 80% of these autonomic or automated choices and orientations that we don't even realize that we have, we have chosen, we've just unconsciously chosen them. And one of the things I like to just always peel back the layers on, specifically for special needs moms, is that it radically reoriented and it destroyed Everything I thought I knew to be true about planning for a life and for a journey in motherhood and when you can. When I realized that I was personally was able to sit in that discomfort of what that reorientation was doing for me and for my life, I realized it was an opportunity to just expand my knowledge and orientation to life as a whole. I had a typically developing and I still do, she's still here. I have a typically developing 13 year old daughter who for all intents and purposes is the white picket fence motherhood life that I thought I was going to, had, have. And I think that speaks to what you're saying is these underlying our underlying orientation. Almost 80% of that you're saying is not even conscious.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: That's true. And I think also though you know, what you say about shattering your orientation is really interesting because most people, your orientation is built up from your genetic heritage, your cultural background, your previous experiences, your ability to analyze and synthesize, analyze and synthesize is basically to tear things apart and then bring them back together. Analysis and synthesis is largely based upon your, your previous experiences. What really the element of your OODA loop, if you will, that was the element of your orientation that was really shattered if you will. That changed was what your expectations were based upon your cultural heritage and your previous experiences looking around the landscape. And so you had to reshape your entire orientation as to what you were doing. You know, the other thing I find that's gotta be fascinating in your world is I mean I think that, that, that your kids have a different orientation obviously than other people, right? They look at the world in a vastly different way as well. And that to me is fascinating because I mean they're, they're, they're. Their orientation is, is shaped by different factors than most people are. And so I find that, find that the orientation is the most, is the most interesting part of Bo Doodle Loop, without a doubt.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: I mean I think one of the things I try to stress to mothers and caregivers that, that are listeners or I do, you know, peer counseling for I say the radical acceptance of the children that we have that are from more lower support needs autistic to children like mine with profound non speaking autism. The lens with which they see the world and operate from their orientation when we believe them, when we simply just believe what we see in front of them, in front of us and that all their behavior is communication to us, understanding their orientation to the world, when we radically believe that and believe what's in front of our eyes. It allows for the other parts of our orientation to grow and expand without so much friction and so much looping of emotional friction and energy. It's one of the things I find is like, paramount in parents that feel so thwarted and so restricted in their world with children with disabilities that they're constantly met with, that they can't. And I always say, well, where does that come from? Is it your. It's not your belief in the child. It becomes in your belief in yourself. And I'd love to hear you talk more about, you know, that it's not a simple loop. It's. It's full of these feedbacks that we're constantly getting.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: It is. Well, you know, there's a couple things that, that I'm thinking about based upon what you, what you say. I mean, we talked earlier about, you know, one of Joy John Boyd's suppositions, if you will, is that the world is inherently competitive and you have to constantly adapt to your world in order to maintain relevancy and in some cases, in order to survive. Right. And so what has happened is, is that for the parents of these kids, their world has radically changed. Okay? So you know what they, as their OODA loops have been cycling through, they've had to adjust, adjust to that by necessity and adapt. And you have to think about how you're going to adapt with maybe the perspective of, you know, I'm going to win at this. You know, I'm not going to let this get on top of me. I mean, it's a balance, and obviously caring for my children is important, but there's a lot of people here, and everybody's got to be successful in this thing, and everybody's got to. Got to survive. And so I think that that's, that's really interesting. You're confronted with a situation that you didn't expect in an environment that changed rap, right? And so you, you choose two choices here. You're going to sink or you're going to swim. Right. And I think that the, the key that's the most healthy thing for people to do, obviously, in that environment is to. Is to decide that we're going to swim and we're going to figure this out.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: That's right. And I think that, again, what, what motherhood path, what is revealed to a lot of parents and caregivers on a similar path as mine, is that this is not a wrong way to mother. This isn't a. There is not a wrong or right way to go about and experience parenthood. It's that we have been conditioned so deeply from again, the cultural traditions and our, you know, our genetics and where we begin our parenthood journey. That's all so deeply embedded into the orientation before we are radically handed. A child who is delayed and is not hitting, you know, milestones like their typical peers. And what I challenge, you know, mothers to always think about is what is going on internally. That's so unsettling for you about that different journey.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Yes.
Well, you know what's interesting, it's interesting here because one of the things, like I say, if you think about the OODA loop as a model for, for, for life, I mean, if you think, if you can almost stand outside yourself and think to myself, you know, how am I looking at this? How am I understanding this? You know, if you're just. John Boyd would also. Or the complexity theory basically suggests you can't understand a system from within.
And so you have to have self awareness. You have to stand back and you have to think about how you're deliberately, how you're handling this and how you're thinking about it and what actions you're taking and what decisions you're taking from standing outside the system as opposed to being just self absorbed and inside yourself without being deliberate.
So I think, I think that that's one of the things I really like about the model is it allows people to think, try to set aside and be deliberate in thinking about what they're doing.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: You know, the.
Again, there's so many pauses that have to be taken when your child simply for who they are requires so much more input and support from a parent even as they age. Right. I always say in so many ways my children have fully developed. I mean, their diagnosis, their neurology, their neurodivergence has not really changed their growth. They've continued to physically grow.
It's that it's required so much more of an external input from a parent and caregiver that likely only thinks that that kind of effort would last until maybe, you know, nine months to 18 months of their life. Right. And that simply accepting that belief brings about a piece to one's orientation to allow for anything past that to not be wrong. It just simply is. And I'd love to hear you talk more about, you know, that, that pattern recognition in the repertoire, like the implicit versus explicit. Because I think so many caregivers in similar situations of mine become paralyzed by the patterns they see and then just, just saying, well, that's just how it's going to be. Even though their child is Growing and developing.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I, I do think, you know, you, when you talk about paralysis. Okay, that is kind of interesting because one of the things that, that, that John Boyd talked about in, in the OODA loop was this idea of getting inside of your opponent's OODA loop. Well, even if you're not, you know, and the mothers of caregivers of these kids, they're obviously not competing against the kids, but basically the environment can do the same thing to you. It can get inside your OODA loop.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: I think, honestly, we're competing against what society's conditioning on true motherhood is.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's probably true. Paralysis is the last thing that you want to do. Because what I say about John Boyd's U loop is, as I say, the center of gravity, the source of strength in the OODA loop is the ability to trans transition from orientation to making decisions and acting. And if you become paralyzed in that regard, what happens is your OODA loop. Literally, it's like throwing sand in the gears. It stops moving effectively. And when that happens, you stop observing, you stop taking feedback, and then you stop changing your outlook. And so, you know, you can't become paralyzed in what you're doing. The other thing I would say is that another thing that's interesting about the, the OODA loop is to do. Doing something is better than doing nothing. Right? And so there's almost no wrong answers. You know, you try little things and see how they work, and if they work, then incorporate that as a success into your OODA loop. If they don't, you figure out not to do those things anymore. But, but staying, making decisions, making things happen, you know, continuing to move through life as opposed to becoming paralyzed is a. Is. Is certainly something that I would think would be important.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: It is. I mean, that's really where Inchtones came about. You know, the name of my platform because I realized that while we weren't hitting typical milestones, we were making strides within the own best version of who my children are constantly becoming. That is still movement. It was still a. It was still a marker of development.
And that's what I harnessed early on. But what I seek to put into the minds and hearts of others in similar situation is you are still moving forward. It's just that you're caught in a frame of mind that whatever that end goal is is unobtainable. But maybe that isn't ever really the goal that was baked into your child's best, best self.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: Sure. And I also think that, you know, in terms of how fast you move you know, it all has to do with resources. And my point being that you can't. It's. I use the analogy in the book of a boxing match sometimes, okay. Inch stones are the equivalent of making jabs. Jabs are a way of continuing to put pressure on your opponent. But you're not spending all of your resources in one shot in some big haymaker. And you can sustain jabbing for a long time. You can make a little bit of progress, a little bit of progress without exhausting your resources.
Because when, when you're, when you know the is, is the reconciliation, if you will, or the balancing of, of ends, which are your goals with ways, what you're going to do and means, and means are your resources.
You know, this is a long haul effort, I know, for parents, like you say. And so, you know, step by step, inch by inch, recognizing that you're going to have some things that you're going to fall back on, you know, a little bit forward and a little bit back all the time, which is really the same as it is anywhere in life. It's just a little bit of a different model.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: That's right. That's why I always say, I mean, that's why this is so applicable, I think. And what, you know, illuminated for me when I first learned about John Boyd is that this isn't just a model for companies or in the military or in a strategic advisory role. Like this actually is so applicable to any, anywhere humans are present. Right. Any sort of conflict. And for mothers and caregivers that that conflict likely is. Stems internal.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Something I love to talk about, and I'd love to get in with you is Boyd talks about, you know, interaction over isolation.
And it's one of the biggest things that feels powerful for mothers and caregivers in my situation because it is very easy to isolate.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: Children with diagnoses like mine.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: Interaction is never the wrong choice. And I always say I don't get interaction by going on a flight tomorrow to Disney World, which I'm crazy. And I interact big time and I sometimes pay the price of, of those choices. But interacting can mean just literally taking a walk around the block. And I'd love to hear about your thoughts on interaction versus isolation because isolation is a very real part of special needs motherhood that I seek to challenge all the time.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Yes. Well, you know, it is interesting because Boyd's OODA loop as an individual model working within an environment, like I say, it's all about making decisions which are hypothesis is acting to see how it modifies the environment, taking that feedback and making further observations and changing your orientation a little bit and then making another decision. You can't do that if you're existing in isolation.
Your orientation will never change. And what will happen is the environment will continue to change without you and you become less and less relevant.
What's one of the things that's interesting to me is the worst punishment, if you will, for people who are incarcerated is when they're isolated, when they're put into solitary confinement. And what happens with people is without interacting with the environment, they lose their mind. And why do they lose their mind?
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Starving. Orientation. You're starving.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: That's 100% right. Your orientation becomes completely out of line with, with the balance of the world.
And so you have to remain engaged with the world or else you. And this happens to older people too, when they become more shut in. They. Their orientation starts to break down because they're not having the daily interactions with other people in the world so much. And so I realize it's, it's. It's probably very difficult for people with, with, with kids like this to, to get out because it's a, it's a challenge out there in the environment, and it can be challenging for others as well who are interacting, but it doesn't matter. You have to, you still have to do it, right? It takes great courage.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know what, what it's taught me in choosing to interact over isolate is that, well, human, human beings act so humany when you get outside the walls of your own house. Right. Like, you start to see the patterns of how humans interact in general, and then you start to notice the mismatches between what you perceived was going to happen versus what actually happens. Right?
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: You know, I, A general example I like to use is that, you know, as my kids get older, we've sort of fallen out of the cute phase. Right. They're eight and almost 11 now. We don't blend in nearly as easy. And my typical oldest is very aware of that right now. Right. In her teenage years, very aware of that. And I think curiosity is just a general part of human nature. Right. We are wired to notice the mismatch. We are so wired to notice something doesn't match here 100%. And we, as a. When I walk around the block with my, my younger two and the dogs, and there's a harness on my son, and I'm constantly saying, millie, hold the leash. Millie, keep holding the leash. You're doing a great job holding the leash. We, we stick out sure. And what I. But what I know to be true is that by doing that we're forcing, forcing a greater curiosity amongst people that don't even realize that they are deeply curious to understand and to broaden their orientation that it's. That mismatches aren't wrong, but we need to, we need to engage and interact with the world to even allow for those mismatches to be discussed.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: That's right.
Yeah, that's right. It's interesting. So you were saying your daughter is. Your 13 year old daughter is becoming more and more aware of it. Right.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Much more aware. And it's so typical. Right. Like I find myself laughing because a lot of other typical parents of typical teenagers are like, gosh, that must be so hard that she's. No, she's reacting so typically to this. It's almost like, yeah, that she's supposed to be doing that. This is exactly how this is so developmentally on point that like it doesn't rattle me at all. Of course she's.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Well, I mean, to think, you know, honestly, at the end of the day, you know, she'll look back on this years later in life and think to herself actually, you know, that this was such a, an advantage and a blessing for her because it has opened her world up to things and to understanding and shaped the orientation that she's having. Like, nobody, like other kids will miss out on, you know.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: You know, I, I mean I, I have such admiration for you guys. You know, my mother in law would always say that God doesn't give you things that you can't handle. You know, and people are very, very strong. And you know, it's, it's, it's a blessing, you know, in a lot of ways I'm sure it's a blessing. And heavily disguised sometimes, but it, but at the end of the day it is. You know, you're really growing as a person and experiencing things that others will
[00:22:14] Speaker A: without a, Without a doubt. Alex. I mean there are. I know I speak for the majority of mothers in situations like this. It is not at all what any one of us would have had in our bingo card at all. I did not wake up at 29 years old in the Upper west side of Manhattan thinking that not one yet, but two children with profound needs. A boy and a girl, not twins. There's so many variables that go into it yet what it has done for me, I think had to happen for the best parts of myself to be exposed and revealed to me and to the world. And I say that not to be on a pedestal at all. But I know that there's reason for all of this, and I do believe that there's such value in constantly having a lens of curiosity around who they are.
There's so many weights that are attached to this.
It's a lifelong diagnosis. There's a massive, if not 100% probability that one or both of my children, my younger two, will be living with me for the rest of my life.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:23:15] Speaker A: That's just. And that's a, that's a, that's a gravitational heavy reality. Yet what becomes from that reality if, if that is given less air, if you don't think much, it does bring you to what all the theologians of the world and the Eckhart Tolles say is live in the moment. The power of the moment does have the ability to change that trajectory and honestly free you from the anticipation of the future.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's really true. You are living in the moment and you are forced to.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: I have no option otherwise.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: No, no, no, no. And, and there's a lot of people who don't do that. And that's really interesting. The other thing about it is, I mean, Sarah, you wouldn't be doing this right now. Right. This is a really interesting thing. And, and, and the niche that you certainly have found here is that you're, you're helping a whole bunch of other people navigate the same terrain that you are. You're helping them with their orientation. Right.
And you would never, you would never be impacting these people like this if it wasn't for that particular situation that you had. So that's wonderful. You know, Exactly.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: I'd love to jump into your book now and to speak more about speed kills, because I think that the details upon the major overarching theme of the book is really powerful. So why don't you dive into the why and why? Why that became the title and sort of the epicenter of the book.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Sure. So I wrote the book because, like I say, I've always been very interested in John Boyd's OODA loop. I was a Marine lieutenant in the late 80s when the Marine Corps was just getting its arms around, was just writing a brand new doctrine for warfighting, a doctrine that exists today. And John Boyd was a huge influence on that, as were others.
And so I've always been fascinated by this and I'm kind of an analytical person to begin with. So that's probably why, you know, I think about this stuff so much. Others might not find it as interesting, but I do. The title of the book actually is attributable to General Mattis at the. I was part of a Marine Corps battlefield Observer team in 2003, and so was present with General Mattis when he attributed his success in the march to Baghdad. He said, you know, speed kills, they went fast, and the Iraqis couldn't get set in front of them. They couldn't establish good defensive positions, and they just, they, they never could put up much of a fight as a result, and kind of disintegrated in front of the 1st Marine Division and, and 3rd ID as well over on, on the division's left flank. So that's where the title comes from. But what, what I've done with the, with the book, as much as anything else, is, is I've tried to make the book practical. So what, what I say is there's a continuum on one end you have theory on one end of this spectrum, and on the other end you have dogma.
We all kind of know what theory is, but dogma is something that you just believe implicitly, that's never questioned. And so that, but there, it's a continuum, and in the middle there, what you're trying to do is you're trying to take theory and apply it. And so you have what are kind of called tactics, techniques and procedures that you, that you try. And really, it's an OODA loop model, because those tactics, techniques and procedures are really hypotheses, their decisions, and then you're testing them against the real world.
But because it's a theoretical model, people don't have any way of really thinking about that. So what I, what I do is I say to an organization or even individuals, you know, how do you make your observations?
So if you're a company, how do you make observations about the world that you need to bring in? A lot of companies don't do that deliberately. They don't think about where they get their data and information.
If you're running a sports team, how do you get your information on the competition? You know, football teams, for example, get game films that they watch, right? That's part of how they observe, you know, so how do you observe, how do you orient, how do you make sense of that information that you brought in as an organization?
And then how does your organization make decisions? A lot of organizations have no idea how they make decisions. They're certainly not deliberate about it. And you can make. Sometimes it's better to be more deliberate in making decisions, to make sure that, for example, if your executive is your decision maker, that he has all of the information that's been shaped properly so he can understand it and make the best decisions.
And then how is it that you turn each decision into action?
How does your organization incorporate feedback?
And how do you move things from the explicit right through the middle to the implicit and implicit guidance and control, which is automation in organizations, its processes and procedures?
So it's a kind of a say, it's a reductionist approach to the OODA loop, but only in that I break it into its component parts and ask those questions. How do you observe? How do you orient? How do you decide? How do you act? How do you do feedback and implicit guidance and control?
That's what the book's all about. And I dive into each one of those in chapters.
But the other thing I recognize is that organizations are complex adaptive systems. They're not a machine.
You can't operate them in a linear process. You have to apply human leadership over all of that to bring it together very much like a beehive would act. That's a good example of a complex adaptive system. You know, it's a little bit of a mystery how it gets all pulled together, but, you know, there is an element to it. It's not something that can be just step one, step two, step three, step four.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Well, I know that while this probably isn't your typical audience, it's not for talking about this. I will tell you that when you just talked about, you know, the, the, I believe. Are you discussing the MCDP one, the War Fighting Manual?
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Yes, well, I, you know, I, I was, I was heavily involved in that because I was with an organization called. Yes. MCDB1 is war fighting. You're absolutely right that that was the doctrine that was developed. That was the primary doctrine. Yes. And John Boyd was heavily involved in that.
[00:29:28] Speaker A: Yes. And I, and I. What I love, and I've, I've written about this before for mothers and caregivers that you can cross out war fighting every time it's referenced and put in Profound autism. Motherhood.
And it still stands. True.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: And it's one of, one of the most profound lessons and why I've loved to learn more about the work of Boyd is that, that, the ability for that, that manual to have such a, such power in a, in a completely different industry, which is motherhood. Yes, absolutely. It illuminates the power of his work and it illuminated the power of even just the Marine Corps for me.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Yes. Well, the reason that MCDP1 has survived for as long as it has is because it's, it's descriptive. It's not prescriptive.
So it doesn't say do 1, 2, 3, 4. It just, it describes, you know, the war fighting environment.
And John Boyd's OODA loop described its pre. It's, it's, it's descriptive, not prescriptive as well.
So that's, and, and, and so that's why it can be applied because it describes an environment and then helps you think about it.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Right, right. Well, Alex, thank you so much for your time today to close this out to fellow mothers and caregivers, those especially raising children with complex needs.
You know, you're not failing because you're not going faster or meeting milestones of those in your environment.
Life is not a productivity contest. You know, there's real work that you have to do every day. And I think that work is something closer to what Boyd was always pointing at, which is staying connected to reality, noticing the things that are changing within your children, within yourself, and adjusting in real time. Because that constant adaptation, I believe, is what allows for families that have atypical children thrive. And it's not a weakness, it's a skill. It's a real skill. Yes.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yeah, you have to, you have, you can't turtle up. You have to continue to engage.
[00:31:27] Speaker A: Alex Voor, thank you so much for being here. On instance today, we will be listing all of you the details on your book, Speed Kills on the episode summary. And thank you for just really a wonderfully complex conversation as it applies not only to your work in the military and in corporate America, but into the, the lives and homes of complex families.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Thanks, Sarah. It was wonderful to meet you. I'm glad we were able to connect and make this work. Thank you.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. And until next time, here on the Inchtones podcast, have a great day.
