Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Welcome to a really wonderful episode of Inchtones podcast. And today I have a new friend of mine as of the last year, Bhatgi of Third Loop Learning, who is a founder and dialogue facilitator and keynote speaker, who I met at a public speaking training and realized quickly that we were one of the few young mothers there who press pause on our life to do some real integral work and introspective desire to learn better on the art of public speaking. And one of the joys of that program was getting to see Baki's message on stage. So, Bakke, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: You're welcome. Let's get right into it, because I think you and I like a good deep dive. Special needs parents like myself are constantly in or on email chains and meetings and phone calls with a slew of what consider our team, right, of educators and therapists and physicians and doctors who are guiding and helping us navigate our child's development.
Those conversations innately are so difficult to have.
As a facilitator, as someone who studies the art of dialogue, and as your craft, what would be a mindset that you could help parents like myself to engage as our best selves for those kind of hard discussions?
[00:01:29] Speaker B: I like to create a distinction in conversations by understanding we are all communicating all the time. But not every conversation is a real dialogue.
So let me. Let me first introduce you to the dialogue continuum. On one end of the spectrum is monologue, and on the other, dialogue. And it's not black and white. Not every conversation is a monologue. It takes a lot to truly create a dialogue. But in between, you have debate. So right after monologue, you can imagine debate. And the only goal in debate is winning, right? So kind of conversation. And then you have something that we do all the time. It's. It's discussion. And the aim in a discussion is sharing, endless sharing. And so what really separates discussion from a dialogue is the sense of action and direction. So imagine a typical corporate meeting where people can go on and on talking about a matter or a problem or an issue and come out of it without any solution or without any next steps or without even forming any connection with each other.
So what I would like you to think about is what kind of conversation are you having in that moment? And just having that cognizance that, hey, this is an awkward conversation. Do I want it to be a monologue? Let them just say what they want to say, and I'm Going to step up and that's okay. It's a choice you're making. Or you can say, I want this to be a productive dialogue and for that we'll talk about how to do that. Or you can say, okay, let's just discuss. I'm here to share. I want them to share as much as they want. And when you decide that, don't look for any action coming out. It's just the goal is sharing expression. So I think the first step to identify is what kind of conversation am I having? And the simplest way to kind of separate different types of conversation is monologue, debate, discussion and dialogue.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: That's huge because I think I can think of four conversations just in the last two days that would all fall into different buckets of that because there's one on ones with the teachers and there's one of the ones with the people that come in and only see my children twice a week. And then I have the team meetings and lace within that. Bucky, as you can imagine, is a lot of emotional or harnessing emotional reactions. Right. Because the topic is your child. And I do a lot of one on one peer counseling. And a lot of parents say to me, I don't think they understand, like this is my kid.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: And I say yes. And that's also their job.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: And they are, they actually are here for you, even though you might not feel they are here for you. Do you have any directive on, you know, emotions when it comes to these kind of conversations?
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, I talk about emotional intelligence all the time. Simply being aware of your emotions is the first step towards creating a better conversation. And if you're not aware and in touch with your emotions, then they are going to write you and then it's going to be as erratic a conversation as it can get. And for that I really want to create this distinction. If you want to have a dialogue, you have to become a facilitator. There's no way to have a dialogue without one or two or someone in the, in the conversation taking this elevated responsibility of facilitating a dialogue. Because dialogue doesn't happen by default, it never does. And the, and the biggest problem with our, with us as humans, and especially with our leaders is that we assume it will happen. And that's the biggest mistake. It will not.
And part of my mission is to help leaders understand that or people who are, and by leaders I mean people in leadership roles like parents and people who are responsible for others growth is to understand that if you assume dialogue is going to happen it will not. It's your biggest fallacy.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: I love that. One of the things that I have learned in my journey of staying curious about neurodiversity is to never assume, presume, or make statements, to just ask questions. Because lacking a dialogue is probably because we're not staying curious to what all can be discussed.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: You know, in some ways, having children that don't fit the typical mold has forced me to stay curious because I'm curious about my child. Right. So there's all these lessons within that, but I think that the parents do need to put, put their assumptions down when it comes to those various types of discourse.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And that, that is an elevated responsibility. It's. It's a responsibility that doesn't come to us by default to not judge. Suspending judgment is a very active state of mind. And you have to switch something inside you to be able to suspend your judgment. It's not to say do not judge, because judging others is our survival mechanism. That's how we navigate in life. So we are not, when, when we talk about facilitation and the art of facilitating dialogue is to just for some time, can you suspend that judgment? And that, that helps you tune into your curiosity. Because now you have developed this, another actual physiological reaction in you that if I don't judge, what do I do?
[00:06:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: What else can you do than to ask questions and be curious?
[00:06:53] Speaker A: Yes. Say that again slowly because I think that that is so powerful. So suspending judgment and have holding pause.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Allows for the space of curiosity to block.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Exactly, Exactly. And that curiosity is the key to active listening.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: I just got shells.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, it's just so true.
Because active listening is thought of as this skill. You know, what skills do you need? And you know, there are seminars and webinars on it, and I do that too. But really it all starts with your ability to suspend judgment and assumptions. And so for that, I want to give you a simple framework. Because we spoke about monologue to dialogue and we, we first of all can choose. Not every conversation needs to be a dialogue. Let's, let's clear that out. Because conducting dialogue requires a lot of energy and it requires a lot of time, and it's not one conversation. So we cannot assume that one conversation can create a dialogue. You may need to have multiple convers to get to a state where now you have a dialogue. Right.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Again, that's huge. Bhatki. That is such a aha moment, I think. And it's going to resonate with special needs parents because we have These IEP meetings and these one offs and these reflective moments in a lobby of a therapy office. And they're all different kinds. Right. But not every engagement is going to be a dialogue.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Most of our, most of our engagements are on dialogues. And that's why it is a very specific skill set and mindset that if you're not ready to get into, don't even try and you know, don't fool yourself or don't fool the other person that I'm here for dialogue. Okay. So if it's a monologue, and I understand in our parenting journey I don't have special needs kids, but just with normal parent parenting, you need to have a monologue. Right. You need to. When you are disciplining a child, there's no point trying to have a dialogue. That's not the place for a dialogue. You may have a discussion there, but sometimes it's just monologue setting boundaries. Hey, this is how it's going to be. There is no ifs and buts because I know what is right for you.
Sometimes it is debate. And then you should know that this is a debate and you can come out as a loser or you may win. Right. Again, just that awareness is good. And our kids need to have healthy debates with us, with their peers. So it's a great way of ideation, explaining things or putting your point of view across.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Right. And then when it comes to flexing that muscle. Flexing that muscle.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And then the third is discussion. So you're just sharing. And so a lot of times we think we're having a discussion, but we have an agenda.
Yeah. If you have an agenda and you're just, you know, endlessly discussing, don't, don't be upset if you don't get through that.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: But if there's an action that's required from, from the other person, but you want it to be collaborative because the purpose of dialogue is collaboration, by the way, monologue, debate. A monologue is just expression, your expression. No one else's discussion is sharing. Debate is winning. What is the purpose of dialogue? It's simple. It's collaboration. And collaboration is bigger than communication. Collaboration is bigger than cooperation. Collaboration is everyone is here and it's win, win, and everyone has to put their best foot forward. So if you want that kind of outcome from a conversation, that's when you are doing dialogue.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Are we as parents, when we're discussing or having a dialogue or conversation with someone about our child to lead them to become the best version of who they are as Their leader. Right. And we lead them to that. How do we allow for more space to hear of all the different things that we are not thinking is an important. Of importance.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: You know, sometimes I'm so surprised at the rigidity that parents hold for themselves and they hold up to their children. Like I'm asking from someone as a parent who knows these really deep details about their child.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: But we have all these practitioners around us saying, try this, try that. How do we stop the swell of shutting down conversations? I believe that a lot of parents do do that. They're like, nope, I know it's best. I'm going to go out and do it. And then there's literally no collaboration.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I see parallels of this in my book. When you, you know, when I'm working with a team that is set in its own ways and people don't want to take responsibility for their own action, how do you get them to understand the impact of their decisions and the choices that they're making on an. On an everyday basis? And how do you get them to open up to new possibilities? Right. Is that the question?
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Yes. That's a wonderful. That's a, That's a much more eloquent way that of my verbal diarrhea there. So.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yes, no, no, I understand the question. The first thing that I would ask you, if you are in the position to be influencing someone else to change their mind, that's the position. The first thing you need to decide is, am I going to be a participant in this conversation or am I going to be a facilitator? Participant and facilitator, two different roles in any conversation. And you may decide in some conversations that you want to elevate to the role of facilitator. And in some, you may say, I don't care or it's not worth my time, or it's not the energy I want right now, or this is not the right time for it. But let's say you reached a place where you want to elevate yourself to a facilitator.
Your first shift that needs to happen is the shift within you. That's the mindset. What do you want from this conversation? And if there is one thing that facilitators know they don't want to do is to win in a conversation. And, you know, I always say, when it's dialogue, don't try to win it, just be in it.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Don't try to win it, just be in it.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Just be in it. Be in it. And when you say we Swift, you know, flip that in your mind. It doesn't matter if I win out of this or not. I really want to stay in the conversation. You have already one. Given yourself permission that you're not looking for that agenda to. Or that outcome. But at the same time, you're going to stay in the conversation because it's really hard not to go back to discussion, monologue and debate.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's so true. You know, I, I think what you're saying is that allowing for the flow.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: To. And let. Letting that evolve and letting that conversation evolve does. Does not only require all parties to be open to that, it does end up. What you're saying is creating the best solution to collaboration.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And, and you know that on the other side, you have a person who is not opening up. They're not going to open up if you tell them to open up. Like, you know. Right.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: And it's like telling a woman to calm down when she's freaking out. Calm down. You're like, yeah.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: I mean, they're not. You have someone who is not willing to collaborate. So you are, you're kind of, in a way, creating this space, the container for them to open up without even them knowing. And that's the job of facilitator. It's very, you know, in that sense, it's very meta that you are, you are doing the things that will eventually lead you to where you wanted to be in the first place. But you have made a switch within that. I'm not here to win it. I'm not here to debate this. I'm not here to like, convince them or sell them an idea, because human beings don't want to be sold to. We don't want, we want the ideas to come from within ourselves. So how do we facilitate that? That's why it's called facilitator. You're facilitating that journey for them. And for that, you have to make some major expectation changes within you. And that's the mindset of facilitator. So, I mean, there's so much to talk about when it comes to facilitation mindset. But the one rule I talk about is, you know, just stay in it. That's your first rule.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Staying in that dialogue and sustaining that conversation is something that I've seen, because when you're on this journey with a child with developmental delays and learning disabilities or cognitive differences, it is a journey too. Like, and that's. And it's not going to end. So it's in Your best interest as their leader, as their parent, to stay in and create the best conversations. And I think that's where what you're sharing the wisdom behind this is so powerful for mothers and fathers like myself because this is not ending. This isn't like we're throwing an event and when they hit second grade, we're, we're out. You know, we're not planning a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah. Like we're not doing any of that. This is the, the journey is the, the event.
[00:15:30] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: That having that knowledge. You know, when I, when I hear people getting very angry about what their child is not being given cause they think that that's the therapy that's going to change the whole trajectory of things. At the end of the day, there's no, there's no goalpost, there's no end goal here.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: You've made that switch, you're going to stay in it. Now when you activate that state of mind, you are now just because you've activated that, you are also activating what we spoke about, suspending judgment, not getting aggressive, not wanting to sell your point. All of that is now become a part of how you're going to communicate. The second step is you are going to lean into curiosity now. And the, so the second state is to ask questions, right? And when you ask questions, it's, it's so interesting because when you ask questions, you make people think instead of feel. Questions make us think and move away from feeling. So if you have this parent in front of you who is feeling a lot of things right now, they are judging me, they're telling me what to do with my, they think they're feeling a whole bunch of emotions. And by asking them a very, very articulate question, specific question that they have to answer. It's not an open ended, not, it's not a closed ended question, it's an open ended question or something like, okay, tell me what works for your child. You've, you know, now they're going to think and speak, right? So what are you going to do? You're going to listen again?
You don't have to do anything. Oh, I'm going to listen. You have asked the question. Now they are here sharing and po. It may take some iterations of it, but they're going to pour and share, right. A lot of time people ask me, okay, but there is somewhere you want to go. You want them to like try this new app or try this new technique. How do you take them there? And that's where so they are sharing their stories. I like to share this, you know, visual, and I can send you the visual so you can put it up.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Yes, that would be wonderful.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: Right, so you. The first thing you're doing is you are switching your mental state. That can happen with just a pause. Just pause for eight seconds. I call it the eight seconds rule. But. Okay, it's really hard.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: It's a long time.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Stop for eight seconds. Don't say a word. Right. Let's say they are emotional. They're hyperventilating. You're just pausing, not saying anything. Now in that eight seconds, you have stabilized your own emotional response.
Now, because you are stabilized and you've flipped internally into. I want to stay in the conversation, nothing else.
What happens to your brain is you immediately lean into curiosity because there's nothing else for your brain to do because you're pausing. Because you're pausing. Right. So you, you are really curious about this other person. When you are. When you're curious, you ask questions. You've made them think.
So pause question, which is called inquiry. You're. You're really inquiry. And when they'll answer, what do you do? By default, you're listening. And when you listen, you're really listening to their story. The second, the third step that you do, and all facilitators know how to do it. You don't respond, you reflect.
So you immediately make it about them. So they have said something. They have given you some information. All you have to do is recalculate it to them in terms of what you understood.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: And think about it, Sarah, how many times do we reflect to others?
We are either reacting or responding all the time.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Reacting or response. I mean, yeah, I, I can't even. I wish that we didn't think that. I wish the third R was what we thought of innately is to reflect that back. I. I guess I think about that in a sense with my typical oldest, because I do a lot of trying to learn about tweens and the girl development and such.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: And one of the things they always say is, like, what. What they're feeling, what your child is feeling in that moment is real to them. So say, that must be really hard.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Because it is really hard to them. I mean, it doesn't. Doesn't seem hard to me, but it's seems hard to them.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: So.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: So what you're saying is to do the same thing within a conversation.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: Yes. Just reflect and, you know, you can. You can paraphrase a little bit. Paraphrasing. Is great. You know what I'm hearing you say is the moment you phrase your response like that, what I'm hearing you say is, this is making you uncomfortable, or you've never seen success with this thing.
And they're like, oh, sometimes you will get, no, that's not what I'm saying. And then again, you're leaning it. So you keep going back into the curiosity, pause and reflection loop for as long as you want. But at some point, I know as humans, we want to voice our opinion and dialogue provides for a way. Because remember, dialogue is about you and them. So you are not completely like giving up your own voice, but voicing and dialogue looks a little different than, you know, general opinion in voice. When you're voicing your your opinion in a dialogue, you're essentially telling your truth as your story. And it's a little different, your truth as your story. Which means, let's say they are saying X and you absolutely believe in Y. You say you're not saying, hey, but you know, X is wrong, Y is true. You're going to say, all my life I believed Y is true. And this is where I'm coming from. So you are actually creating space for them to understand you because they are not the facilitator. They're not going to ask you the question. They're just a participant. So they are not asking you these questions. They are not leaning into the curiosities. How do you help them get there? You serve it on a platter.
But now you're creating space for dialogue because they were like, I had no idea you were. You have this experience on. This is how you see the world.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: And instead of in our polarized world, we need so much of this. But no one is facilitating this because no one wants to facilitate.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Right?
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Right. So you are giving them everything they need to be in a dialogue with you, even though all they want is win. Right now you are telling them everything. So they are saying, oh my God, I had no idea about this. So you're telling your story as your truth, not a fact, not. Not a open fact. It's your story, your truth, it's not their truth. And once you do that, this is where. And I will give you the visual because when you voice your opinion, you. You are doing another thing which is called balancing inquiry with advocacy. Have you heard of that?
[00:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Balancing inquiry and advocacy. So inquiry is what you do not know yet.
[00:21:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: And advocacy is saying what you believe in and wanting. But when you balance, if you only do advocacy in a Dialogue, you may lose them. But if you pair it with inquiry, that this is what I believe in. Tell me how you think about it. But you've done all of that. You're not reaching advocacy and inquiry right on the top of it or the conversation. You've done all of that reflection, listening, curiosity. You've done it for, let's say, 20 minutes. And then on a 25th minute, you go into your point of view. Now they're open to listen because you've given them so much. So. And that's why I say not every conversation can be a dialogue because it takes time and the outcomes are very different. You're looking for collaboration, you're not looking for quick wins.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: So if you can do, follow this cycle. But it all starts with what's the starting point, Sarah, where does it start?
[00:22:24] Speaker A: All starts with conversation and asking questions.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Staying curious and being in the pause. Yes.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Eight seconds. It takes seconds. And the pause is so critical even after asking the question. Let's say you ask them a question and they don't answer. You don't. You don't repeat your question. That's such an important tip. And I realized the power of that only after I started facilitating difficult conversations that people don't want to answer right away. They are thinking. They are, you know, formulating their thoughts. And it's an interesting study that one of our common friends shared with me that an average teacher in the US Waits for less than one second after asking a question.
There's a research done, and what they realized, if the teacher waited just two more seconds, just two more seconds, the response rate went up by 700%.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Right. So we've been conditioned to think that we have to give response right away or that. Right. And we can think and we can press pause.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: And that, that has made us being conditioned to fill the gap. So when you ask a question, you are uncomfortable with the silence as a speaker, and so you want to fill it with whatever comes out of your mouth. First thing you do is, what I mean is. Or you repeat the question. Right. Don't do that. Just create the space. That space is so critical to getting the dialogue. It's, it's literally imagine it's the container that's more important than the people in it. If the container is right, the people who come together can have a dialogue, but someone has to take that ownership. And yeah, that's why I say you can either be a participant or you can be a facilitator if you decide which is an elevated role to be a facilitator, then there's a whole lot of responsibility that you have to take on.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: And it's a beautiful one because I think it creates a lot of learning. And Baki, this. This conversation, I mean, you filled more in 27 minutes, I guess, right now than I can even imagine, because I am.
I am so thankful for the gift of what your mission is and what your skills and what your profession and what your lived experience is to be able to give that. I cannot think of the number of people, it's going to be so many that you touch. By reminding us that space that we can have and take pause is only going to allow for the practitioners and the therapists and everyone to come together in a greater capacity to help these special, unique, neurodivergent children of ours thrive. Because. Because if, at the end of the day, we are holding space for them as well.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: I'm so glad that you invited me here because I never saw, like, a direct application in this way of the work that I do. So thank you so much for, you know, making me think in a different way about the work that I do. And I hope that your audience finds it useful.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, I can see you on a stage at a special education conference just talking about this. In terms of these meetings that I'm having every week with my children's teams, you are doing the work of seeing these children for who they are and allowing for these conversations to give room for our children to be the full expression of themselves due to all these therapies and educational processes that we get to put in place. So thank you so much for your time. It was so wonderful to chat with you.
All right, and next time on the Inshen podcast.
