Resilient Parenting in the World of Autism & Neurodiversity with Kyle Shepard

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Inchtones podcast. I have Kyle shepherd here today. Kyle and I connected on Substack and his incredible account titled Resilient Mental State is one that I was innately drawn to because resilience is deeply embedded part of raising children with profound autism. So without further ado, here is my conversation and my longest one to date on Inchton's podcast. What is your what. What do you feel like is the best overlap when it comes to the two platforms? And obviously we find such synergy when it comes to resilience, but take us back a little bit. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I'm a big fan of your account, your work and your message. And it resonates with me in a lot of ways from a resilience perspective, for sure. My work in the military, I'm primarily an ideologist, so, so a doctor of hearing and balance. And my role in the military is to prevent the number one injury, which is noise induced damage. But really it's to optimize performance in extreme environments that which is hazardous noise, but anything else that can influence auditory situational awareness and balance performance. So it's really cool some of the things I get to do as an audiologist, but man, it's 11 years ago now I picked up in the military they promote collateral duties or other jobs that we can pursue to benefit our command, the region, the military as a whole. And I heard about CG Oscar, what's called caregiver Occupational Stress Control. And that was a component of combat Operational Stress Control or a program stood up in the Navy Marine Corps to combat burnout issues with stress and encourage resilience, even though that wasn't promoted. That's kind of how I took it on as I grew in the program. But this specific thing I was trained in was for caregivers and I worked in hospitals, clinics and but very quickly we talked about at. I mean most of us are caregivers. If you're a parent, if you take care of anyone that's disadvantaged, whether it's elderly, whether it's different abilities, but also just anyone you care about, you're going. [00:02:03] Speaker A: To be, you're a caregiver. Right. [00:02:05] Speaker B: So I found like all of this overlap in my life and since I was a kid, I was interested in stress and without knowing it, resilience just due to issues in my family or different friends for a variety of reasons, what caused some people to thrive and others to really struggle with the same stressor being present. And I actually became an audiologist because in undergrad I, I Went there initially thinking I wanted to be a psychologist and actually a psychiatrist. But I started taking some of those chemistry classes and advanced different sciences. Only I'm not smart enough for the. The medical rat, same way. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Which makes me sad for people like us because I think we could have actually thrived if it's given the right environment for learning. But that's neither here nor there. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Just gritting through some of those classes. But I didn't like it. But I also observed some psychiatrists on the job, and it was much different than I thought it would be. I actually want to be a sports agent. Before that, I observed some sports agents on the job. I'm like, this is not like Jerry Maguire. This sucks. I don't want to do this. So I pivoted to wanting to maybe do psychology, and I started taking a lot of classes there. And that caused me to get a job in the summertime back home working with children with a varying degree of abilities. A lot of them. I don't even remember the term spectrum disorder at the time. This is back. [00:03:18] Speaker A: No, that didn't really happen until recently. Yeah, until recently. Yeah. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah. This was 2005 to 2000, probably 8ish, when I was doing the work in the summer. So some of them were diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, Fragile X syndrome, autism for sure, and then all kinds of other overlap and comorbidities. And it was just such a fulfilling experience for me. I did the Big Brother stuff before that in high school, but doing kind of a blend of ABA therapy and just working with these kids, it was. It was so rewarding. And then I also got really interested in communication and some of these breakthroughs that are experienced. And we'll share stories today for sure on the unique aspects of this particular inability to communicate in the typical way that we're used to, which caused us to come up with a diagnosis of autism. So I picked up speech and hearing science, wanting to get better at my ability to support these children, and then fell into audiology, and that caused everything downstream that's happened in my life, which is just pretty surreal. But I still have gifts from families I worked with, and I cherish that time because it led me to what I do today. So your account brings me wild. [00:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, our journeys into this understanding of what these bigger concepts you're discussing couldn't be more different. Right. Like, I mean, even just being a man and a woman in a caregiving situation and through the choices you made before, you probably became a father. Right, right. That. That Shaped your perception. I think that when it comes to a desire to stay curious around communication, that is something that rises quickly. And what just understanding about your story and mine is that until you have and are around children who do not communicate typically there is no ability for you to suspend your belief that communication only comes in one form. Beautiful and right. I mean you. There's no ability because very few people decide to emerge in an environment of children or around children, even one on one that do not typically communicate. And I say this phrase a lot. I do believe all behavior is communication in some. In some capacity. And it's especially true with children that are non speaking. Now both of mine have varying degrees of use with an AAC device and having a girl and a boy. There's also just. There's so many evolutionary biological things that I'm sure there's some scientists that would love to study them one day because with the same exact diagnoses of autism, apraxia, dyspraxia, sensory processing disorder, they, they have grown and developed so differently even in their communication ways being a boy and a girl and two and a half years apart. But they're. They are communicating. And how Millie has progressed with a, you know, an aac. My son has, I mean he has no desire to do that, but he's taken to different forms and learning to do spell to communicate boards and truly just is on a different growth cycle even within non speaking communication. Which is crazy. [00:06:17] Speaker B: And I love you talking about different forms of communication because absolutely. This is before I got into speech and hearing science and before I even just thought much about communication because I'm still developing when I'm in undergrad. But yeah, so we know if you are anywhere near the communication disciplines or have any interest in it. I mean we communicate so much non verbally and like you said with our actions and how do we even communicate with ourselves gets projected out into the world through our emotions and our experiences and the fascinating minds in these children and of course adults. And you see some of the abilities when they find their way just like any other human being as you figure out your role in the world. It's really beautiful to watch. And again now we're in like the spectrum disorder phase and pros and cons to everything. I mean you're writing and a lot of work out there illuminates some of the limitations of it because I am a big fan of like thinking about a lot of things falling on a spectrum. However, you can't just classify this unique realm and into one General. And then apply the same interventions. Like. Like it's going to be. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it just becomes. I mean, the word that always rises up when I think about our attempt to generalize in an effort to help you end up erasing the most marginalized of the group. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Generalizations can help categorize things, but then within generalizations, we need to get really specific. We need to have targeted interventions at appropriate levels, and that's going to be quite different. And when you try to blanket interventions based on a generalization, that's where things fall apart. And we try to do that at scale in so many domains. And then you see it fail time and time again. And we kind of learn from lessons, but then the pendulum swings again. And frustrating. [00:07:56] Speaker A: I think sometimes the. In the stress around that specifically, you know, for the audience that I serve, like the mothers and caregivers, there is always this sense of. This urgency of time. Right. Because the brain's plasticity and neuroplasticity. Well, I believe, and I know that there's studies that uphold it happening throughout the majority of life under age five is when it's the most pliable. And so I think all of us that have received diagnoses, you know, of profound autism and non verbal, non speaking children, there is a sense that we're always like past the age of five, like we're already so, so far beyond the point of help that there is this stress that's added to the urgency of even attempting different kinds of things because we feel so much behind. But that I do believe that that feeling is more conditioned, not actually what's experienced. Because I see the growth in my kids. Right. I see them succeeding. It's just not at all what I've been conditioned before becoming a mother taught me to. And unfortunately that was. You know, I was 29 when I had my first kid. So I had 29 years of thinking that every child I have was going to get to talk to me. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And now learning about the different types of communication that we can exhibit internally and externally and the breakthroughs that could happen there, the progress that you can see again, we're conditioned to have these thoughts and assumptions about how the world works or how people work. And I'm actually working on a piece right now just differentiating emotions from feelings and digging into kind of not too deep, that will require a different piece on each primary emotion. But man, we overlap feelings and emotions quite a bit. And our thoughts, perceptions and assumptions, those are all. They can definitely be subconscious if you don't consider them. But Those are conscious interpretations of our circumstance in the world. And those now, in the absence of a life or death situation, influence our emotions. And our emotions are innate wiring for how we evolve and not. You just mentioned young children. My wife and I, by the way, I'm so interested in communication. My wife is a speech pathologist who I met at my first. [00:09:50] Speaker A: I see. Fell in love with a speech pathologist. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Completely random. Met her at a sports bar slash restaurant one night. I'm wearing Ohio State shirt. It was actually during March Madness when I was still watching Ohio State. I went out. I figured I'd watch them in public. She got rained out of a bonfire and just started talking to her. And then very quickly we learned what our professions are. Easy icebreaker. And then we hit it off from there. But completely coincidental. But how funny that audiologist Meredith speaks about this. And we both have experience working with autism and different issues at younger ages. But we were talking about just our baby girl. You asked me how many children I have. But then we started talking about something else. I have four children, so my oldest just turned 8 and then almost 6, almost 4, and then 7 weeks old. [00:10:34] Speaker A: And congratulations. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Thank you so much. And we talk about like we're talking about her communication. Lucy, my daughter's communication. She's experiencing all the emotions already. She doesn't have the words or the ability to even rationalize or have the feelings that these adult have. But she's still communicating in the way that she can with her needs and the relation that you can use for anyone who struggles not only to actually produce speech, but even have the feelings and awareness of their thoughts that contribute to their emotions. Like live so passively where we just emote without reflecting on what's happening. And my experiences, again, working with the children back in undergrad who particularly more toward the nonverbal end. And when you would connect with them and help them regulate because receptively many times their language. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah. Millie and Mac. I mean there are. I mean, Millie specifically 100% receptive language. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Yes. And that's a different type of communication. Of course. A different type of form of receiving versus producing. But they produce plenty. And their frustration will be exhibited because the inability to produce. Just like a baby totally. And or just like an adult who is not in touch with their emotions. The overlap. I love the idea of convergence of concepts. [00:11:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:48] Speaker B: And autism is such a beautiful lens to consider human beings through. When you remove the ability that we think is typical communication or production of. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Speech, I mean that becomes probably the inflection point that I believe that most mothers that either find me or find my writing or realize that I mother in such a different way is that, that, that didn't become this like iceberg I ran into and just kept hitting and hitting. I just thought, let's go around this and just work with like I became the fluidity of knowing that if I kept doing the same thing and hitting it, I was like, they have to talk, they have to talk, they have to talk. Which a lot of parents and caregivers fall into. It becomes this really sad anvil that just drags down their hope and their acceptance and they just need. It's like being this, in this jail cell, all they need to do is walk around and see that there's different ways to allow for those communication channels to happen. And it's not going to look anything like you ever anticipated. [00:12:52] Speaker B: And those breakthroughs, not only in your mindset that you're supplied, but just in capabilities that we as humans can have to communicate, it's never ending possibility. But like you said, you keep running to the same wall that is unbreakable potentially. Yeah, maybe it is breakable, but maybe you'll break before you break it because you're so hell bent on the concept of typical. [00:13:13] Speaker A: Correct. [00:13:14] Speaker B: When, yeah, at, at the time when I was working with the kids that were non verbal, we did not have, I think they were creating them, but the AC devices were coming along and it was so exciting to think about. So I would do a lot of different activities where I would be like their AC device or I would draw or do certain things based on their desires or perceived needs. It was just very fun to see the, the capability is in there. The ability to go from desire to production. We still don't understand it. We don't understand the human brain in general anyway. But these unique cases and you'd see it. And I wonder for you as a parent having worked through this process of probably being at a time where they have to talk, they have to talk. Like I reflect back on that and you would see the ability to be able to produce speech sometimes. And I wonder if that potential is a good thing or sometimes a detrimental thing to parents who are like, well here's progress, we need to stick on that. But like anything ebbs and flows and then you have these perceived breakthroughs but for whatever reason it was just a one off. And I have a few stories related to that, but we'll get there. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Well, I think you know what, I keep reminding myself about all of my kids and again I have a typical developing 12 and a half year old daughter as well. So I always say I'm so blessed to be able to have had to currently experience what it's like to have a, the expectations of what a typical developing child is. And you know, a 12 and a half year old slamming her door and saying she doesn't want to go somewhere. The majority of parents go, are we going to get through this? Like, we have to solve this. And I'm like, but that's typical. She's doing typical things. So I, it's almost like so freeing to me that when being able to parent children that are, you know, not quote, unquote made for this typical world, I can focus more on the present moment and just accepting it as is and not feeling like there's this structure that has to be pushed on them to even, even from the, even the word develop. You know, there's data that goes alongside them and follows them like any child in, like any sort of school system. Right. But what it, what I've allowed myself to do is go, they're, they're growing. I know that they're growing. I, absolutely, and I'm here to be the leader of the environment with which is going to allow them to grow in the greatest capacity and the quickest. And that's not necessarily what anyone else besides me would know because I, I do receive their communication and understand what they're trying to produce and allow me to aid them in that. But that, that, that comes from a real suspension of expectation and that's, that's become a real, you know, I guess pillar of my own work is like you have to suspend you have any expectation because that's the only place that is without like built in restraint. [00:16:06] Speaker B: So in that piece that I'm writing on emotions, I came to some core themes in my belief of each emotion. And sadness I came to basically a disconnect or unmet expectations related to objective outcomes. That is usually the core underlying theme of sadness. But of course all the emotions overlap too. So sometimes sadness can mask anger or vice versa. And anger in my, in my, in my opinion has a lot to do with having a hard time or at least attempting to control things that we cannot or accepting things that are outside of our control. And when I talk about controllables in this world, which is a big thing that I like to bring into my presentations and teachings on resilience and stress management is there's very few things in this world that we control and thoughts are not one of them. I always Say, like you'll hear people say thoughts. You cannot control all of your thoughts. Things come into my head all the time that I'm not proud of. Particularly when you're not in a good place or you're responding to a parenting concern, a work concern, that you're surprised that how you're even surprised that your plans have changed, your issues come up, it's still beyond me. But my true control is not my thoughts that come in. It's my interpretation of those thoughts. Or again, my feelings I do have control over, bring conscious, and that's subsequent action. So anything after the interpretation of my thoughts, everything that I do, internally or externally, is within my control. Everything else is outside of my control. I can I influence it through my own thought interpretation and actions and communication, which is part of what happens in that? Absolutely. However, that takes time. So right here, right now, what do I have control over? Thought, interpretation, subsequent action, and when I can dial myself back, particularly when I'm feeling like I might be getting angry or any other emotion, when it's not life threatening, which most of the stressors these days we're fortunate enough are not, that is really empowering to think about. So in your example, you're talking about your children's growth and how it's influencing your ability to adapt and expand your perspective and become better with them. It's just such a beautiful concept for us to embrace in response to any change and adversity in life, because that's just inevitable. Parenting, relationships, job, hobbies, life. [00:18:18] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, what it comes down to is what it's taught me. It was a byproduct of probably the original lesson of just focusing on the next right thing to guide and lead them as a mother. But the byproduct of that was that in doing it for them, I've learned to do it for myself. It's like, it's just. And again, you probably would not. You'd be hard pressed to find a special needs parent that didn't understand that concept because you have to have such conscious parenting and caregiving on children who quite literally, if the doors aren't locked or the safety protocols aren't put in place, they will, they will not survive outside the home. Right. Like my son will just wander into traffic. I mean, there's, there's, it's, it's an unfortunate truth. I accept it. So we place, we put things in place to make that not be the case. But because of those little protocols that you put into place for their safety and their growth, it's, it allows you to think about that for yourself outside of being their parent. And no one thinks about that when they're on the bottom, you know, at rock bottom, getting diagnosis after diagnosis for their kid. That is never potentially going to live independently. That's not what you're thinking. You're not thinking about the byproduct of it actually helping you develop as a person. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Beautiful. The power of acceptance, and then the ability to then properly prepare and plan for embracing that acceptance where you can then learn skills like adaptation, resilience, and all the benefits of emotional regulation. And that was the best lesson that I learned. There was one boy in particular I worked with. His name was Kyle. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Wow. [00:19:53] Speaker B: 16 years old. His parents paid for 20, 27 care. He lived on his own independently with at least one caregiver, usually two. So he had a whole host of diagnoses, but fragile X was at the top. Autism after that. And he was prone to frustration outbursts and, and there were some, sometimes physical injuries. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Self injurious. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah, self injurious, but also injuring of people that worked with him. I worked with other children already and he taught me emotional regulation of myself. And like, we connected so deeply and he sought me out. He would ask his parents for me to come in, and when he was having a hard time, he would come to me and hug me. But the reason he responded well to me, in my opinion, was my ability to remain calm. He felt safe with me. He knew I wasn't going to use like any physical restraint of him or I was there to keep him safe. And he knew that it was also communicated by me regularly. But even if I said the words and I didn't believe them, my communication, even if my speech said something, my body, something different, and there were a lot of unfortunate incidences, incidences with him just due to, I think, other caregivers inability to maintain emotional regulation and control of themselves. Maintain calm and, and like any child or individual who feels unsafe, they're going to emote strongly. If you feel unsafe, then surprise, fear, anger, all of these emotions are going to take over, and then, then your ability to ration is going to be suppressed. [00:21:24] Speaker A: That's right, Kyle. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Once again, such a powerful lesson for me, like, hey, the more calm I can remain in challenging environments, the more I can connect, the more I can perform and the more I can function the way that I would hope to, to become. [00:21:36] Speaker A: It's. It's one of the things I've realized that cuts through any sort of perceived anxiety that I see with My children learning a new skill is always just counting. Right? It's like the simplest thing. You know, I sense their stress. I sense that they don't want to try to do a certain thing like throw their. Or, you know, pull their pants up or get their second arm in their shirt. And you sense that, like, frustration because they'll make a sound that I know that resonates as helping. I need help. I need this. And I just go, 1, 2, 3. And it's like, keep going, keep going. We're going to count, and we're going to keep trying this. And there's something so calming about being the person that can lead that. But also feel the reception of that calm back from a child and like you experienced with Kyle, from a child who typically doesn't seem calm or even comfortable in their own skin because of their behaviors. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Have you ever heard of the 92nd rule? [00:22:31] Speaker A: No, but maybe. Maybe. I don't know. [00:22:34] Speaker B: So I. I wasn't like. I usually make sure I remember. I'm terrible remembering names sometimes. I believe the neuroscientist name was Dr. Jill Bolt Taylor. That's what's coming to my head right now. But she did different experiments measuring the stress response and how long it would take from onset to parasympathetic nervous system offset, where you get close to baseline of where you started from arousal. And without rumination, without continued focus on the problem or issue at hand, when you could separate yourself from. Let's say someone came up behind me and surprised me, scared me, but it was my wife, and she messes with me, and I know I'm safe. If she did on this podcast, I'd be irritated with her. I'd probably roommate a little longer. If she just did it, I would laugh. And then that arousal inside my body, on average takes about 90 seconds to get back. So the power of counting that you just demonstrated is an incredible tool in. Even more so when you can understand that what just happened inside me is a physiologic response and I can get back to again, whatever baseline means. I'm not a big fan of homeostasis or baseline. I think. [00:23:35] Speaker A: No, whatever. And we're all. And we're all at a different baseline, too. [00:23:37] Speaker B: Correct. [00:23:38] Speaker A: You know, and especially along the growth chart of even an infant to. I guess I always say, you know, I laugh that we have an adult being like 21 years old. I mean, your. Your cortex, your frontal cortex is not closed until you're 26. None of us should be allowed to make decisions until we're at least 26. [00:23:53] Speaker B: I would, I always say that in presentations, but mine was closer to like. And I talked. When I was 30, my wife and I had a breakthrough and I was, I needed a lot of lessons to grow up and be the best husband I could be. And we experienced that. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Like, it's funny, we call them adults, but their brain isn't fully developed yet. So their ability to fully utilize executive function in the prefrontal cortex doesn't happen until 26. And it's very funny because I'm still guilty of this all the time that we try to teach these lessons and talk to kids rationally when they're emotional. And literally we are wired for when our emotional brain takes over and we're experiencing heightened emotion. Don't get me wrong, as you develop emotional intelligence and you're experiencing mild amount of stress, there's a balance there. But when you are, when you are truly freaking out or you're having a hard time, you're not going to be learning anything. You're not going to be able to comprehend anything. Well, we try to like really intervene and help somebody with words, right? Or think we're helping somebody with words and tell them certain lessons. Again, I'm guilty every day of this. But we cannot rationalize when we are emotional. So we need to manage emotions first and get back to the ability to rationalize. And that is. So that's kind of like the idea of baseline. When can I start utilizing that prefrontal cortex more? How can I calm down my limbic system in the core brain be less emotional so I have the ability to communicate, to question. You can't question when you are conclusive in your emotional state. How do we get away from those conclusions? How do we get away from this perceived problem if it is not a life or death situation? I always like to use that because I talk to people in the military, man. Lean on those emotions, lean on your instincts and your training. For sure, when we're talking about survival and working in your operational environments. But a lot of the burnout and a lot of the stress issues come outside of training, outside of the operational environment. When life hits you with all those other stressors, all those other issues, the work life balance, the family issues, the what do you do when you transition out purpose beyond your role. All of these things can be perceptually, we're sitting here talking today, not a big deal. But when you get really met with it in the face and when you don't have a particular mission in mind, A known role within the team. It can get challenging. [00:26:04] Speaker A: The compounding nature of it. Again, I go back to thinking about the population that I serve is the burnout like you were talking about, the training that you, that you provided too, in the military, the burnout of intensive caregiving from a, you know, evolutionary biology point of view to, you know, caregivers on the, on the other end with, like, aging, you know, parents or adults when you are 24, 7, to keep someone alive and fed and hydrated without a break, it becomes such a mismatch of what a mother is supposed to do after she gives birth, years and years later. Right. That our brains, you know, are not functionally prepared to care like we should for a newborn to keep them alive and well with the inability to communicate verbally. Right. So we put in all these things to help aid that. But the stressors that are compounded upon what's asked of you on top of the typical do become for the majority of women and mothers that I speak to, I mean, completely paralyzing. And their emotions then start to so greatly take over that they can't even see the growth that is happening from their child, what their child is experiencing, you know, finding. I always say, like, find and capture that joy because it's so small, but they're so beautiful because even within that, like, intensity of, you know, fear and sadness and anger, you can, you can move past that, specifically when it comes to these children and almost rise above and go beyond what society has told you is joyful, happy, worthy of celebration. [00:27:40] Speaker B: You said something really important there in the beginning about with inability to take a break and break. So I could differentiate resilience from burnout with a simple word, recovery. Yeah, but what recovery means, it doesn't mean, like, the physical act of caregiving. We have the ability now to ruminate quite a bit and to. And caregivers are just such amazing, altruistic, selfless people. And that is such a beautiful thing. The world would be better if we all had that caregiver mindset. However, like anything, it can be used in excess. And if. And it almost like when you have that orientation, you feel selfish when you start looking out for yourself and truly turning off your mind when it comes to consideration of the child or person you're caring for and doing things particularly for you, and whether that is mentally, physically, socially, and spiritually. But all of that is what allows you to recover from the act of providing care so that you can continue to sustain performance and show up selflessly. So I'm a big Believer in all acts should contain components of both a selfless and selfish nature. So we can find joy in the process of caregiving, but also find joy in the process of caring for ourselves. But that recovery is crucial. [00:28:56] Speaker A: I, I, I haven't released an episode yet, but I know that you also follow Sam Alaimo on substack as well. And you know, talking to him about the overlap of the intensity of SEAL training and you know, being a mother of profoundly autistic children, I, I, I said to him sort of point blank, I said, you got to go home though. You got to take, you got to deploy and, and then go back to San Diego. I don't get six weeks, weeks off ever. I might get like five days. And that is still of a great burden to my own self care, which is, I know that that's a work in progress as well. And that is, it's just the truth. I mean, there's so much more that aligns with the incessant nature of caregiving that, you know, I wonder what your take is on that from a recovery point of view, because I sometimes feel like I'm not going to get even a week to actively recover and I had to make my recovery dense. Very, very conscious, very, very conscious in a smaller amount of time. [00:29:52] Speaker B: Recovery comes in many different shapes, form sizes and durations. And if you are not intentionally trying to recover daily in some capacity, then you're leaving something on the table. So by all means, that week off, that six weeks post deployment, all that stuff that is a form of recovery to just get your system back to a circadian rhythm that's normal. And maybe some other things that you would need more time to spend on in your particular case for a new skill development or an actual vacation, just away from any mental consideration for extended periods. But man, anyone I've talked to who says they don't have time for self care, and again, we have to define self care and get into that, which of course just watching Netflix. There's nothing wrong with pleasurable activities, right? But you're not fully allowing your brain, body and spirit to recover if it is just passive pleasurable activities. And you're not intentionally try to take care of yourself in some domain to get better. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Do you think sometimes that there is? Like I, I sometimes have to get again inch stones, right? I have to look at the smallest little portions of any sort of growth, very small, because my children taught that to me. But now I get to do it myself, you know, walking around the block or stepping outside barefoot in the morning. For me, I mean, it's so, it. It almost elicits an eye roll from the majority of like typical parents. Like, it's so, so small. But that truly does ground me. Like literally being on the ground with my feet. [00:31:17] Speaker B: And you're doing it for you? And my wife, I, I learn parenting concepts that we read about and talk about, but I actually learn it through observing her all the time and, and what she's really good at. So like, I can go on autopilot and I can keep executing the task and the support and keeping everyone safe and getting through hard times while physically being there, even though kind of I'm emotionally just, just stoic with the. Under the lowercase s. Yeah. So, yeah, just no emotion. And that is not sustainable. You'll eventually burn out if you're running like that. Quite often what my wife is good at is she'll be like, guys, I'm feeling really frustrated right now. I'm going to take a moment, step outside, take some deep breaths, and then I'll be right back. And her ability, not only is she doing that for herself and she does come back in and I've noticed over the past few years, the time, the, the frequency and the amount of time that she takes, they both have gone down. Of course, her ability to regulate live has improved. But also the demonstration in the act teaches our children that sometimes you need to take space. And she's doing intentional breathing to self regulate those emotions to come back and speak more rationally because she feels herself getting close to having an outburst and saying something which she does do sometimes too. And then she repairs, right, all of these things, just the intention behind the action. And it's for you and not for anyone else or even because it's for you, it allows you to be there more effectively for someone else. So again, that selfish and selfless component. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Well, I mean, you know, modeling that behavior again, when you talk about plasticity, you know, of the, of the brain to our children, I don't care if they're typical or neurodivergent neurocomplex in any. And however they, how are they present themselves, we as parents, our children imprint onto us. I mean, that's, that. That's. It's a biological process. And so when we do model that, I have a lot of self reflection over how I was raised as I get older and older, because I think, oh my gosh, I mean, I knew that my parents did that. I'm not even sure in the late 80s they were consciously aware of it, but they were Taking good, really good care of themselves from their bodies and their choice to be active and fit and place their marriage as number one. I mean, it's really, really simple. But I look back more and more now with the reflection of what did that teach me to now what feels right in my nervous system to do? You know, it's like I ha. It's like I. I can't divorce from the fact that I experienced that as a child. So what you're saying is that, you know, with your wife doing that, your children are. Experience her and witnessing her do that. So they will start to intake that and that will imprint on them and. [00:33:48] Speaker B: They do that sometimes, I'm sure I need space. I just need a little privacy so I can calm down and like, it's just it. That's everything. It's just so. [00:33:56] Speaker A: I mean, it's such a gift, right? It's such a gift. [00:33:58] Speaker B: And again, how it's done sometimes they're not using their speech to do that, but you see them walking away. My son Sam, I mean, we always seriously joke that he elicits the strongest motions in every direction. And when he was 3 and 4, they used to be in the perceptually negative direction and the hard times. But these days it's in the profound love, joy and just proud direction. And his ability to regulate in real time by just going inward, focusing on breathing. You'll see him tear up sometimes in response to a challenging situation, but then he responds back with a, with a really positive attitude of support and whatever the situation might be. I have tons of stories there, but it's just, I love that regularly. But he's doing that without any typical communication, if you will. And maybe we'll talk about it afterwards. But sometimes he doesn't share it and, but you see him demonstrating what he has observed and, and we all learn through observation. I mean, the good quote that kids often don't listen to what you say, but they sure watch what you do. And I definitely one of my favorite skills to think about now that I want to demonstrate as a father is integrity. And I'm never going to say right or do anything that I'm not doing or at least attempting to do daily in my life because I'm going to slip up every damn day. [00:35:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:35:12] Speaker B: And I try my best not to, but then I reflect on it. I have a great supportive spouse who will talk to about it. And we know each other's intentions and we look out for each other, but also call each other on stuff just so we can Keep trying to progressively get better in at least one domain to some degree, inch stones daily. And the effort is everything. But if you get complacent, if you think you're good to go somewhere, then I can assure you that's going to start to slide. [00:35:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And it will. And it's okay to also be able to reel yourself back in and press the reset button on that as well. I've had to do that so many times being Millie and Mac's mother. And, you know, obviously in Home Advocate, I'll never forget when they got their diagnosis, when Millie got diagnosed, and then subsequently Mac, one of the clinical directors at their first preschool, was like, congratulations, mom, you're the CEO of their education. And I remember thinking, why don't. I don't want to be? And it was like, great, like cool. And it was like anything else where I just accepted it and thought, okay, I knew I do know how to lead them best because I did create and birth them with my own body. Let's go. And I have to make a lot of changes along the way. And that's, again, these byproducts of that that overflow into my own personal life based on simply leading children in a world not made for them has just. It's like, worth its weight in gold about that energy that I placed within their own development and starting again, trying something new, realizing that's not going to work, trying a new school, advocating for something else, realizing that that functionally is not going to work within the family, within the greater family dynamic because they've got an older sister that's, you know, there. There are going to be things that constantly are going to evolve and, and have to be destroyed and change, and it's okay to do that. [00:36:53] Speaker B: And you're evolving because of it. You're adapting because of it. You're getting better because of it, because of the feelings and thoughts and responses that you're deciding to have. And not that it's been easy, and I'm sure there's been a lot of frustration along the way, but we all slip up. But if you can get back on and renew your mindset, consider how you're regulating emotionally and stay the course. It's amazing what we are capable of, particularly when it comes from a place of love and in your place. It's demonstrated in every one of your pieces and every time you talk about it, it's awesome. [00:37:22] Speaker A: Thanks. I mean, I think something that's risen in the past year, and I'm sure that you and your wife could. Could Relate. Your wife could definitely relate is that I've never had a stronger mother intuition than I had since really getting quiet with my own mothering of children with non speaking autism. And, and I believe that putting the power because I know that I helped. I, I get asked to be a, you know, a peer counselor for other mothers and they're looking for answers. I'm sure that you find this all the time, people coming to you like, Kyle, what do you think I should do for with X, what's the situation? And I always go back to I will never know. Like, you could tell me all about your kids. And as a mother, I love, I love having a podcast. I just want to hear about people's life stories and what ended, how they ended up now and what they, how they were raised. But like no one is going to know your child or your children better than you and your wife ever agreed. Like, and especially your wife's intuition on their development and their, and what their emotional and I believe relational growth needs are solely based on the fact that I can be a mother and I can share with you what I think as an outsider, but I will never know. And that is, I think that is a really primal sixth sense of women and that I, I've seen it over and over again within the population of moms that are similar to me because they're asking me, well what would you do? And I always say to them, I don't, I don't have Connor as a kid, I don't have like Seth as a child. I can observe them and accept so fully what their development is so atypical. And I can help guide you into what I think of as one path of potential growth for them or how to switch schools or to advocate for these services. But like what do you think? What do you observe? What changes have you made that have seen maybe really just tiny, tiny incremental growth that maybe a teacher's not gonna see. Because we need to trust that those little data points and allow for them to be the reason to say, okay, let's try something else. It's not wrong, it's all data. But I think that the moms, I think that mothers that, that do that and I, I love this the, like your story of your wife modeling that because it's, she was listening to what she believes is not only the best for her to be able to regulate, but also for the family too. [00:39:35] Speaker B: And I mean that's why you're so great, by the way, based on how you approach working with other people. You're not coming with like, I know all the answers. [00:39:42] Speaker A: Like I definitely don't. [00:39:44] Speaker B: It's why you're so credible though. Like my thing when I look for sources of knowledge in the world, there's so many experts, there's so much data online that we can find now AI is out there, of course, large language models have its place, it's a great tool. But when it comes to humans and subject matter experts that I seek out, they're the ones who typically. And what I try to do as well in coaching leadership and being a father is, is not having the answers, but coming back with questions because knowledge is phenomenal. But my knowledge that I apply and works well with me, which turns into my wisdom probably is going to be exactly the same for you for a whole host of reasons. So I can share my story, but it's really going to be the questions that I ask myself and the different paths that I considered. But you're never going to know unless you do it for a while. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah, curiosity, I mean, is like my, it's become one of my most favorite words because from, I mean, from just all that's going on within, you know, the health systems in this country, through interpersonal relationships, through being a middle aged woman, you know, like all these different things, if I don't stay curious to what is the next right thing to do, I become stagnant and static and I don't want to be that. I really don't want to be that. And I think that there is something really powerful about asking yourself really, really hard questions over and over and over again, even if there's not an answer right away. [00:41:07] Speaker B: And I'm a believer that there aren't many absolute truths or absolute answers. Things are constantly evolving. So just embracing and accepting uncertainty, which is tied directly to curiosity, tomorrow is uncertain, for one, but also our own personal development, our children's development, if we're just there for it with the right attitude and curious about them and their experience. Experience rather than me. This is what you need to do. Follow me. Don't get wrong. I've had those kind of leaders. I've had dynamics like that in my family. And there's a time and place for everything. But when I get the best connection with my children, with people I'm working with, I'm there with empathy to live through them. [00:41:44] Speaker A: Please show witness. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah, your situation, let me experience this life along with you. And there's where the connection happens. And then you can start to see maybe opportunities within their issues that they're not seeing. And this is where diversity and different perspectives can help. But you're never going to see that if you come from your particular wisdom and you know it all and you have certainty about that. No, I mean, thank God not everybody's like me or else we all be screwed. There's. I have a lot of pros, but we want those different perspectives and that's what allows for innovation anyway. [00:42:12] Speaker A: So. So totally separate because it just keeps rising as you chat, as you talk. How are you raised? What? What, What? What's imprinted on you? How were you. How are you Kyle, today? Based on the previous versions of you know. [00:42:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:24] Speaker A: What was witness to you? [00:42:26] Speaker B: So I grew up in Troy, Ohio, so it's near Dayton. My dad is a farm boy from the area. My mom is a French Canadian, so I'm half Canadian. And that's probably where I get a lot of my kindness from. Because the kindest individual that I've ever known, maybe even to a fault sometimes, she leans so hard toward looking out for other peoples. When you talk about selfless sacrifice, love, that was my mother. And my father was the typical hard working Midwestern boy that got after it. He was the youngest of six, but he ended up being the most perceptually successful, but also subjectively successful in his family in a variety of ways, just through his work ethic. There was a family business that he did really well in and then when it fell apart due to reasons that were not his fault, he pivoted well and continued to execute professionally. But he was also somebody who showed up as a dad. He was involved in every one of my activities growing up. Just. You talk about unconditional love. I. I was lucky enough to experience that my whole life. Now my family also not only like nuclear family, but extended family there. My, my sister was a social worker, not was she is a social worker, but when she went to school, she was tasked with creating a family tree. I've told this story a few times on podcasts, but it's too good not to share again. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:47] Speaker B: And she was tasked within this family tree, as you lay out all the extended family, you're going to color code each person and or box with colors related to the mental health disorder, the substance abuse disorder, and all these other things that come up. In social work. We joke that our family tree looked like a Christmas tree. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. [00:44:07] Speaker B: And of course there was a lot of undiagnosed issues that now with our knowledge, you can see patterns. And so a lot of exposure to struggle to mental Health disorders or at least stress related issues. And that was always really interesting for me. And because some of these are some of the people that I cared most about in this world, I wanted to figure out a way to help. And that's what led me to psychology. But then ultimately life led me other ways and I fell into speech and audiology. And it's really interesting to see me come back too stressed because of my interest as a child. So unconditional love, exposure to some dynamic issues around the family. But I'm very fortunate. And those experiences shaped my passion for not only trying to be the best father and husband that I can be, which I got to see in my dad doing the best that he could with what he had at the time. And of course my mom and I'm very lucky to have a wife who also had great parents and did the best that they could with what they had. And you hear me say that intentionally because our parents weren't perfect. But what is perfect? There's no such thing generational, generationally, there have been different cultural norms and things that were embedded into each generation based on the world of time. So it's funny, like the boomers of the world blame the millennials and the younger kids for things, but hey, you guys raised those children. But also you were raised by the generation before you. And it's very interesting to look through just the past few generations and trends and these are generalizations. Of course, there's variability within everything. Like my go. Yeah, but yeah, we had parents that without question. I think most people do the best they can with what they have. And when you can look at particularly people that way, you can have a lot of grace. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:48] Speaker B: For them and acceptance of what was. And now what can you focus on? What can you control for what is? And then that's within you. And that can be communication. At the end of the day, you do the best that you can with what you have and maybe try to do a little bit better. And that's kind of been the orientation I've had since my childhood. [00:46:04] Speaker A: That's wonderful. I mean, I again, I think that we can't ever, you know, separate what you experience as a child and then how you experience parenthood yourself. I mean, I think it's such a beautiful gift to be able to reflect on that. Right. You know, I remember becoming a first time mom and I mean, I could not have been living in a more different scenario than my parents were when they had me. Right. Like, I mean, could not have been a completely, totally different environment. And then in a lot of ways there was a understanding of my own bi. Like your point about the family tree, like my own biology, like when my. What my mom experienced at that time, how I was a little bit older, but the questionings around literally everything like postpartum and carrying children and all these things. It was so interesting to be able to suspend like the actual scenario of like where I lived and like you know, the job I had at the time versus what I was actually experiencing. Being a child of my parents and then becoming a parent myself and then seeing that. What I think is that the reflective nature of parenting allows for. I hope that future generations and I, I do see this actually when I speak to companies. I have a. I actually have a lot of faith in Gen Z. People are, People are so such haters on Gen Z. I think that they are like so emotionally intelligent that they are. And yes is this world, you know, have a lot of complexities that seem wild of course and there's a lot going on right now globally. But like when you think of the global village and what we are able to intake, knowledge wise, I think Gen Z is off to a decent start. I mean they're, they're stuck behind in other ways. But so is every generation, right? [00:47:38] Speaker B: Yes. And we like to make assumptions about the world based on either what we said through news or social media. Like that's the best representation of the world. But when you get out there and you talk to people. Yes, of all generations, but particularly the younger generations. I don't know you, but I'm impressed all the time with the people I work with, with the people I talk to, with presentations at different high schools or interact with, with children's sports. I mean it is rare that I see the depictions of the different stereotypes of each age group in the world. And those people, by the way, probably just having a hard day and projecting it. Yes, but, but I mean without question you look online and it's very easy to come up with these beliefs about a different political aisle or a different classification of people or what's happening where. But man, when you get out and live it, it is often quite different. [00:48:28] Speaker A: It really is. I mean the example I use probably more than I should is that you know, my typical daughter and her basketball team, we've gotten so lucky with the coaching and the staff and the, you know, the year round AAU everything. But what's been the most beautiful byproduct is watching these girls know Millie and Mac as a, as their, as a family coming to watch Them all play since they were little and really struggled with attending games. I mean, I. I know that all those girls on this basketball team remember seeing me holding Mac on the court, covering his ears, rocking back and forth, you know, gasping for air. And I was just holding him, going, we're gonna sit here. We're gonna watch your. Your sister's game. We're gonna sit here. Love you. We are totally fine. And I would count down the buzzer, you know, I'd be like, five, four. And I would cover his ears. And these girl that are just part of the community, that are typically developing, that have most of them typical families of typical siblings have got to see their other teammate. You know, my daughter's siblings be a part of the spectators. And it has given them so much. But they've also reflected that back whenever we travel. They're so happy to see Millie and Mac. Thanks for being here, Mills. You know, oh, my gosh. Like, thanks for clapping whenever so and so made a, you know, a foul shot. It's. It's really nice to see that. And I think that that's what gets lost sometimes in the media's portrayal of generational acceptance versus what's actually happening in the younger generations. [00:49:53] Speaker B: And you're all so much better for that. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:56] Speaker B: Millie, Mac, you, and of course, all the girls on the team and people that are part of that team's family. [00:50:02] Speaker A: Totally. [00:50:03] Speaker B: But, like, it required you intentionally knowing that was going to be a challenge and going to those games, preparing and adapting and coming up with ways. But this is why I love the concept of intentional stress, which I write about all the time. [00:50:16] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:50:18] Speaker B: And it's not just causing pain to cause pain without any intention. That's why I use the word intentional. Like, based on your values, based on your goals and where you want to go in life, it's going to require some struggle to get better. But the more you expose yourself to those domains, no matter your abilities, the more your brain and body will adapt to function well within it. And you just demonstrated that so beautifully all around that team. From Millie and Mac to you to the teammates, you were all better for it. But it required some struggle early on. It doesn't mean you won't ever struggle again because you did it so much. But if you don't struggle as often or severely, you are better because of it. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Well, I just remember thinking, like, this is years ago. Millie did a lot better at those court sounds, right? The squeaking, the buzzer, the whistles, the ball sitting on bleachers, uncomfortable all These different things. I remember thinking to myself, we are not. If this is gonna be your sister's sport, which was, you know, trajectory was showing that we are not, not going to games. Like, I don't. Like, I'm going to choose, you know, and as my partner teaches, you know, so brilliantly, like, I'm going to choose interaction over isolation. At the end of the day, that is. That is always going to be my choice, and it's going to be really, really hard. But I, I never have found a scenario where choosing to isolate grows the capacity for development. It never, it never happens like that. And the vacuum of that. And it's. And don't get me wrong, I had. If I can, you know, I re. I can recall, like, in my body, like, I can almost visualize the movie of myself sitting on these. The court floor and just, you know, having to make sure that Millie had a snack too. And, you know, the other moms kind of saying, you got. You will watch her. You can go sit with him. That, like, community support from choosing to do something really hard was still the right choice for all again, for the teammates from the girls, from the coaches, from the spectators. Everyone, Everyone. And. But it was. It was really hard. And it still is really hard to choose that sometimes because the preparation is really annoying, you know, it just is. [00:52:17] Speaker B: And the only exception to the rule that you just said, which I wholeheartedly agree with, of choosing interaction over isolation, would be if isolation is difficult for you. [00:52:25] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Exactly. [00:52:27] Speaker B: So because you're such an extrovert and you love connection and you love being out, then maybe challenge yourself to meditate by yourself for a while and sit with yourself. And what happens for me, I have such a hard time. So I'll sit in the sauna rather than just. Yeah, I still feel like I'm doing something, but being alone in my head to see what comes up so I can work on. There's the one exception to every rule as an exception. So, like, again, I'll put out notes or you'll put out things, and there's always going to be nuance. There's always going to be exceptions to those rules, but generally speaking, concepts can apply pretty damn well. [00:52:56] Speaker A: But those sections, that word comes up a lot for me too. How do you. Because I agree, like, there's such nuance, there's such complexity. There's never. There's not me. A note that I put out that everyone's going to agree with, or a post everyone's going to agree with. [00:53:08] Speaker B: Good. [00:53:09] Speaker A: But how do you but how do you become a person? Because I think that we are. How do you guide people who want to become less, less rigid in their ability to receive the teachings that you, that you have? The teachings that I have to accept the nuance. Because I think that that sometimes is, is one of these like gaps, like. [00:53:27] Speaker B: How do you teach that cognitive flexibility, like anything is a skill. And I'm a big believer that we are just a culmination of skills. A lot of them are probably subconscious and less than ideal because we just are not even aware of them. [00:53:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:53:41] Speaker B: But when you think of opportunities and if you notice that you're pretty rigid in any opinions, if you have a lot of certainties, when it comes particularly to things like people or the world, there's a lot of opportunity. And one of my favorite lessons to embrace is failure. Because failure is just approaching a domain where maybe you think you have a capacity for competency and then failing. And that could be in an interaction with a person that you believe you know something about. That could be, of course, physically. And I, I love training programs when it comes to safely pursuing physical failure. But I love failure as a lesson. And loss is a lesson for learning how to reframe your certainties on life in the world, and particularly people. It requires intention, it requires awareness and just consistent effort in that domain, but that particular planning for it too. So I mentioned consistency. We had talked before about recovery and taking time away. You probably know I write quite a bit on intentional stress challenges. And then I do a monthly challenge. It's usually physical. I've done a few breathing related challenges, but it never is more than 10 minutes a day. It's typically less than five minutes a day. But I love the idea that we are prone to plasticity throughout our life. Without question, there's a lot of plasticity that happens in developing children and young adults. But we are prone to adaptation with intention, effort and consistency at any point in our life if we really want to. And one month can create incredible change in a specific domain. Again, if you apply yourself to that regularly. And it doesn't need to be many, many minutes, it often is just five. And I love experimenting on myself and then of course, anyone who wants to do it with me, and then hearing their feedback and feeling and experiencing my own objective and subjective results from five minutes a day for 30 days. And I've done so many challenges now, whether I start competent or not, it is wild to see the transformation that happens with my performance in a given domain when you do that. So man, five Minutes a day can change your life in a very short amount of time. And that is self care, in my opinion. But something like cognitive flexibility require a little bit of flexibility in execution. Because I would then come back with questions of where are you struggling with those certainties, with that rigidity, and how can we explore it further to maybe disprove some of the absolute truths that you believe you have? [00:55:59] Speaker A: See, it's, it's rising in me right now just to set up something for, you know, the caregivers that follow along in my writings is that I get, I get a lot of commentary about, like, well, that just seems like too much. I'm sure you feel this way in what. In the work that you do too. Just. That's too hard. It's too much. I don't have the ability or my child would never play with play doh. My child's not going to do wiki sticks. They're not going to do Legos. They're not going to do Duplo blocks. Like, they're going to throw it. They're going to trash it. Can you try it for 15 seconds? And it's, it's so incredible that the smallest increments of growth will actually light up and fire you up in ways that you don't. It's actually does the opposite. You're like, almost annoyed that it works. Right. Like, there's some moms that'll be like, I can't believe this worked. And you're like, well, you tried it. Isn't that awesome that you actually tried. [00:56:43] Speaker B: It and try and fail. Try and fail a few times, but keep trying with a good attitude. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:49] Speaker B: And the more you try it, the more your body will adapt. And if you get 15 seconds or even, it's like, when it comes to, like, how do you get better at dealing with fear? Expose yourself to those. Yeah, expose yourself to it. And so like, if it's Plato, maybe have the play DOH in the room, watch somebody else play with it. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Yep. [00:57:07] Speaker B: And then maybe have a tiny speckle of it and then just progressively improve upon what used to make you uncomfortable. Getting a little bit more comfortable with that. We can apply this literally to anything. [00:57:18] Speaker A: Yep. [00:57:18] Speaker B: And it can be any domain. It can be parenting, it can be children, it can be development, and of course it can be physical skills, mental skills, and where I write. But I love the idea of you thinking about ways to apply that to the people that you work with, because. Absolutely. It can feel like too much from an effort standpoint or a time standpoint, but you mentioned it can be just 15 seconds and it can just be looking at the aversion. [00:57:38] Speaker A: But I think what you're saying before though, it's, it's suspending the idea that the outcome has to be sump x. That's what I always keep going back to with mothers and caregivers. It's not, you are not going to get your child to ride solo in Disney World. You have got to start with walking around the block. You have to like, it's, it's, I mean it's, it's so. It's like I want to shout it from the rooftops. It's not going to, that might not even end up happening. But what are we doing if we're not attempting the smallest of little changes? [00:58:07] Speaker B: Yeah, something like doing a pull up. I, I think I could get most people in this country assuming like of course, if, if weight is a big issue, you want to get them to a certain body mass index. But if you're at an appropriate body mass index to be able to do a pull up, I guarantee I could get most people to be able to do a pull up in a month. But those first two weeks, it's gonna be quite easy work every day, but it's gonna be every day, five minutes of something. But by the end of that month, with all the modifications, all the considerations of getting to that stimulus, I bet I can get you to a pull up by the end of the month if you're willing to show up with a good attitude and try. [00:58:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:41] Speaker B: And again, that's true of anything. But it's so much easier said than done when it comes to the parenting realm because we care so much about these little human beings. And the more you care about something, the more you're prone to stress around it and then as soon as. [00:58:54] Speaker A: Or suffocate it or suffocate the process, you know, and I think that, you know, we have to allow for that, that, that flow and that, that wiggle room a little bit to sort of not be so, you know, contained in what the rigidity of what we anticipate the outcome to be. When, if we can just release our expectations of the outcome and know that trying something new is, is all. Is never the wrong choice. [00:59:19] Speaker B: Agreed. And so here's a story from. It was my second year working in undergrad. Little boy's name, he went by junior. And at the time he was considered non verbal. But like classifications, they are what they are. So you could get him to produce speech, but there was nothing consistent and The. The words were quite variable in his ability to produce them. But as I did again, like Aba, like therapy with him. He was a big fan of the Wiggles. And so I would have different colored markers and I would have a picture that I was going to draw and I would draw out the different Wiggles characters. But he would be helping me do it. He'd move my hand, but then he would tell me I'd go to the wrong color and he'd have to say purple. He would attempt to say purple. We'd play on the trampoline. He loved doing that. And so, like, he would use what he could produce at times. And we got to some semblance of consistency. But still overall, mostly what they categorized at the time as non verbal. Never heard him utter anything independently throughout that summer. I'm working with him. Right. Receptively amazing in the system that we would work within. For sure, independent expression didn't see it once. And his mom also. He would. He would emote and he would show through other forms of communication his issues all the time, as you know. But the independent expression just wasn't there. Last day for the summer before I went back to school. He knew what it was. His mom prepped him accordingly. It was kind of a sad day. He was kind of down about it, but I was talking to him like, hey, buddy, we can still write each other letters. We'll still talk, but. But, yeah, I'm probably not going to see you for a while. Maybe I'll stop by Christmas. And like, he's getting all that. So I. I want to say he was probably like 7 years old. And I was leaving after a fun day. I stayed a little longer. We had fun. He was in good moods, but he got pretty upset when I was leaving. And at the door, when I was getting in the car, he was like, kyle, please don't go. He said something like that, along those lines, how it came out, like, in his unique way of saying it, but his mom heard it clear as day. She started crying. I'm. I'm about to cry right now. [01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:15] Speaker B: And like that I mentioned before, like, those little breakthroughs and these unique minds. [01:01:20] Speaker A: Yep, it's in there. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Like, it's in there. And you attach that, you see that, and then like, that will influence your expectation of what's possible. And I wonder, like, how much, because we tie these expectations, we know the capability is in there now. They're still communicating. And what I love in your writing and what we're talking about today is you can take that Capacity and know that it's just a reflection of what's in there and how can I work with what is. Again, within uncertainty means also typical is possible, but it's not the outcome, it's not the goal. It is how do we work toward inch stones of improvement, progressive improvement over time for what is in there. So that's. [01:02:02] Speaker A: There is. I mean, it just is. [01:02:04] Speaker B: It was one of the most powerful moments of all the kids that I work with. I had many, but I reflect on that one awesome. When it just comes to like, what is autism and what is that barrier to for this boy to be able to independently produce a sentence that I never heard. And his mom told me after that that was a unique one off that I'm not used to. But like, what is that? And it's just, it's, it's such a powerful demonstration of the human condition and things that we will maybe never understand. And then that's also okay. [01:02:33] Speaker A: I think that we, it's. It's like again, you know, we're all just floating balls of energy, you know, around. And that energy, when it's recognized or the differences of how it's organized is recognized. Sometimes then gifts, gifts, you, the person that's witnessing it, something that is extraordinarily ordinarily ordinary in that way, you know, that, that I find very similar things happen, you know, with the, with the aides or the teachers that my, that my kids are with the most. The ones that really see them for these beautifully developing kids. And they tend to have these surprising breakthroughs. And it's because people believe in them. And it's, you know, there's so much research out there that shows that if you have one person that believes in you or you have one person, you can call for eight minutes to ask for support. Over the course of, you know, a tough season of life, you are better than most and you will end up becoming the best version of yourself because of that belief. And so I love, I bet, I bet Junior knew that you believed in him. You believed him, you believed in him and in him. [01:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah, and I loved him and he knew that too. And so like that. When I was there, I was there. When I talk about resilience, I like to talk about like three domains within it that really facilitate the ability to be resilient. And that is past experience, for sure. Develop strategies, which I write a lot about. But what you just mentioned, support. And I like to really emphasize perceived support, because objective support, sometimes you need to do that to stress test it. But me Offering objective support right away or inserting it is not always and often not support unless it's requested. But if you know that you can come to me and that I fully support you and I fully love you and you have that, that backboard if you will, that you can fall against if you, if you need to, that's going to pick you back up. You have people behind you that will have you take risks, that will have you believe in yourself more. So that self belief sometimes unfortunately isn't developed because of the lack of initial belief. And a lot of these self, follow the word self discipline, self love. It's very hard to develop that if you never received it in the first place. So often you need to be given discipline. Like in the military, you'll see people out of the military and they don't have self discipline. They were very disciplined if they were told to be, but they never transitioned that capability into a self motivated attribute. And that's true of many things. And it's terrible when past experience is absent of a certain thing like love or support. But that, that is experience. And sometimes you see these diamonds get formed through pressure in the rough. But we know that's often not the case. But we can also, it's empowering to know we can create our own experiences that if we're still alive today, we still have fighting this. And there are resources and abilities to cultivate experience, to of course to train and develop strategies and then seek out and make our own support systems. And what I love about Substack is finding you and all these amazing creators. And again, it's particularly with yours, just bringing me back to a different phase in my life which ultimately brought me to where I am today. And then this conversation now, it just, it's so cool. [01:05:32] Speaker A: It's so cool. Right? Full circle. Yeah, well, I think that. And again, what has come into my life because of my children, I, I, I know that a lot of people really, you know, have a hard time accepting what life has handed to them. And I, I, I know that the children that chose me as their mom were doing so because it was gonna give back to me in so many ways through different people and different pockets of learning and acceptance from, from a way like this, like you would ask my mom and dad growing up. I've always loved one on one conversations, like literally always have. I've always wanted to do this and feel connectivity from a one on one standpoint because I feel there's so much noise whenever you add more than just two people. And it's not wrong. It's just that for me, this is what I feel like gains the most, the intensity and what surfaces and the bigger lessons always rise for me in one on one. And so it's interesting that, you know, that was always in me, but it didn't really come out until I became the mother of Millie and Mac and sort of had that self reflection enough to realize that okay, this innate part of me can actually help grow a part of me that I never thought was ever going to be, as I say, like on my bingo card, like, you know, a severely severe autism mom that was not at all. And yet it's allowing me to develop parts of myself that I know were so innate for me as a young child too. And that that full circle from a self reflection point is one of the coolest things about substack and finding people that align with my mission too. That as yours and many others do. [01:07:01] Speaker B: Beautiful. And so you're making it expand your identity because like what I often find too is we get within these roles, jobs or capacities in our life where I'm a father or I am a military officer and like you can get wrapped up in that. And don't get me wrong, these are all important roles and abilities to make an impact. But when you get compartmentalized in one place, rather than find a way, how can I add different identities and capacities that support my number one values, my number one priority, which is going to be probably in our case, fatherhood and motherhood for you. But we have many others when it comes to our significant others, when it comes to our job, when it comes to writing in public. And like again, my reason for writing is for me and it's for to leave something behind for my children so they know who I am if God forbid, I'm not here tomorrow. But if it helps other people, which I've been fortunate enough to find out that it does, hell yeah. [01:07:55] Speaker A: What a beautiful byproduct. [01:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah, byproduct. But that's important. The byproduct. [01:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah, the. I had a. I recorded a episode earlier on today with a mother and son duo and it was a 21 year old son who learned to really be a self advocate for his own learning disabilities. Just growing up in New Jersey and his mom is a special education lawyer and said I really thanked him, you know, for even being open to it and he was so well versed in knowing. He said I just knew from when I was a little boy that the things that I were struggling with, if they were ever to help One other kid, I wanted to do it. And I'm looking at the mom and the son thinking, this kid really struggled to get through school. I mean, he really struggled to graduate. And at 21 years old, he can say that to a 42 year old mom in front of his own mother. Gosh, she's doing something right. Right, that's. That's exactly the byproduct. It's the byproduct of that. [01:08:46] Speaker B: It's just, it's such a beautiful realization of what we do every day matters. And sometimes again with this, with this public facing stuff, you may never know the ripples that you create or the impacts that hit home for somebody. It's awesome to hear about it. But at the same time, like, I know there's so many books that I've read, podcasts I've listened to, conversations I've had with people that have resonated with me, that have impacted me deeply, and I've never let that author or that podcast or that listen know about it. So that intention to not only be the best version of yourself, but to make a positive impact in other lives, is there a better mission life to have in your unique domains? I can't think of one. [01:09:25] Speaker A: I can't think of one either. Yeah, well, that is a phenomenal final thought to end on because I do believe that for as different in words and on the paper that our substack, in our writings and our, our actual lives are, that really does have a vast synergy or very, very tight synergy with it. Is that what we're putting out into the world? I. All I know is that if I'm going to help another woman and mother in a similar situation, have an understanding of her and what she can and what she can live beautifully with her children, that is worthy, that's the most luxurious gift that anyone could ever give me. [01:09:59] Speaker B: Beautiful. Thank you, my friend. This is amazing. [01:10:01] Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks, Kyle. And until next time on the insurance podcast.