[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the next episode on the Intergenz podcast. You know, one of the coolest things of being involved in advocacy work is finding names of people that continue to pop up on emails or on LinkedIn or social media. And Julie Katz is one of them for me. She is a advocate as well as a soon to be author. And her company, Next Pivot Point, is one that focuses on inclusion from specifically the leadership arena. And Julie, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, thanks so much for having me and for your important work.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Well, thank you. You know, we're all trying to stay as involved as we can in this very swirling environment of the United States right now with autism and autism awareness, autism acceptance. Where do you find your best work that you, that you do?
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate the question, Sarah. It's, you know, I talk a lot about allyship, meaning how to support people that are different from you, maybe from a lived experience experience or an identity perspective. And as a mom of an autistic kiddo, you know, I know I'll never fully understand her world.
I try to understand it and I know there's things she knows that I don't know yet. And it's just a fun exploration process. Of course there are challenges as well, but that's what allyship is. It's kind of this stumble and this bumble and we're not going to get it right 100% of the time. It's probably progress over perfection. And I spend most of my time working with leaders on how to facilitate an inclusive workspace where everyone feels seen, they feel heard, and where they feel a sense of belonging, that sadly is just not the case. As much as we'd like to think in corporate America and we have on top of this right now all this polarization and pushback of our important inclusion work. And so I think it's really important now that we engage our allies and help them understand why we need their voices too.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: One of the things that always pops up for me in conversations like this, especially within like workplace environments, is there's this anticipated energy that it's going to take to provide inclusion and what that support looks like. And then when you actually talk through it, leaders or C Suite, go, oh, that's it. You just wanted.
And I. Talk to me about that because I, it's, it's like this beautiful byproduct of speaking about inclusion and self advocacy for Neurodiverse employees and Neurodiverse recruitment policies. You know, why do we have such anxiety as a culture for what those inclusion methods look like in companies.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it goes back to kind of this myth of meritocracy that runs really strong in America, especially in corporate America. You know, the, the narrative. I grew up in the 80s and 90s. Pull yourself up by those bootstraps.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, bootstraps, baby.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I don't really have those. Like, what am I supposed to do?
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Turn the lights down and I'll talk.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: About it maybe, you know, like, it's so weird and we think that everything has to be the same for everybody.
And that's a lovely notion. I wish the world was equal and that myth of meritocracy was already achieved. But that is not the case, sadly.
Otherwise we would have equal amounts of women and men and all genders represented at all levels of the workforce. And that is not the case. Only 11% of CEOs are women. So clearly there's this idea and this expectation that hasn't been fulfilled. And so we create this story in our head that it's going to take so much work to close a gap like this. We have to do everything differently.
And for people in positions of power, that's very scary because the system has benefited them to get to this point. And certainly they've worked hard, certainly they've had hardships. Power doesn't mean that it's been easy for you.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: But it also means maybe your starting point was more advanced. Maybe it means that people took a chance on you and they might not take as the same chance on a neurodiverse employee, for example, or neurodivergent employee, for example. And so it's just this promise and this unfulfillment of that promise that we kind of get our heads around. And I find the most helpful exercise for leaders that don't see it yet. Like, it worked for me. Why isn't it working for you? Is just to peel back the onion a little bit and think about what were your lived experiences, what are your identities and how much are they represented by other people in positions of power.
And just recognizing that that's proxy to power. The more you take on those identities as a neurotypical person, straight, white, cisgender woman, non disabled, list goes on. I have a ton of privilege and power in those identities. And so the question becomes, how do I use it for good?
It's not about shame, it's not about blame. It's not a right or wrong, it's not a good or bad. It's. It's a paradox.
Right and we know our human brains don't love paradox. Like, we don't love this.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: We are wired to find mismatch. I brought this up on a number of episodes. A friend of mine shared a study that was done about mismatch and the innate, almost like evolutionary biologic desire to notice things that are different.
Yeah, there was protection area at some point, and now it's more of a socially wired response.
And at the same time, I think it's not to push that down, but it's to use it. Use the way that we're naturally wired in a way that serves us right. One chooses adhd. Right. I don't. I didn't choose my wiring neurologically. And yet there are ways in which I can lean into why I'm wired. And I think that whether it's a neurotype or just a human behavior, you know, yeah, we're. We're. We're wired to go, whoa, whoa, this is different.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Why do we, why do we meet that? How can we. How can we stay curious to that feeling and actually say, well, let's. Let's not, like, push it to the negative right away. Let's stay as neutral as we can? And that's. That's very difficult.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an evolutionary trait, like you said, to notice differences. And I noticed with my autistic kiddo that that is heightened even more.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my God.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Snorting and it's this or that.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: But all of us have some of that in us. Despite our best efforts, we are wired to notice differences. As we hunted and gathered, you know, for 90% of our human history.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: We had to know people like us were probably in our group and safe. And people that had a different skin tone, had a different, you know, cultural expression, were different, and maybe not to be trusted because we didn't know their group and if they would fight us or want our resources. So of that is very primal and unhelpful in a global world where, you know, we weren't. We've never been at this point where we could communicate so easily with someone across the planet.
And with that comes a set of challenges where our brain has not evolved at that same pace.
And we like people like us, it's called offense.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: I do think that the processing speed of my children, like Millie and Mac, and again, they're young, they're little, but. But their ability to take in so much information, I always wonder, maybe they're more. Maybe they're the ones that are more evolved. You know, they can really take in music, a TV show, and a visual encyclopedia all at the same time.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: How. How fast have we been able to actually catch up, like, socially and then within the work workplace? Which is why, I guess I asked. The original question is, like, what does that look like? How can we take it from being this massive sort of, what feels heavy change and lighten it a bit.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah, lighten the load for people.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: I think it's. It's twofold. You know, a lot of times I come in to do training, which. Training is great. Education is 80% of the journey, and people want to know what to do next. And I usually pump the rigs on people and think about why first. Like, why do you want to show up as what I call an ally? But you could insert, you know, mentor, you know, sponsor, advocate. You could insert a bunch of other words if you don't like that one.
What makes you want to be helpful, like, at the end of the day, like, what is your vision? Like, what are you hoping to achieve? And for me, it's about my kiddos. I spent 12 years in corporate America and never, never felt a sense of belonging. I always felt the other. And really, just from a gender perspective, I had a ton of other access to privilege and power. But for me, it was this visceral feeling like I don't belong here, that I'm different, that I have to code switch or cover up parts of my identity, usually dialing up the masculine parts and dialing down the feminine parts to fit in. And we know neurodivergent people do this. We know LGBTQ folks do this in the workplace. Constantly heavy masking. Yeah, masking. Yeah.
I don't know if it's safe for me to be me. So I'm gonna be the version that I think will be socially accepted.
That takes a lot of effort to do that. You're not getting the most from your workforce. And, I mean, I hate to think about it that way, because it's obviously humanly wrong.
But if you're running a business and you want to maximize productivity, creativity, innovation, profitability, you want to be a good capitalist, you need to get the most from your workforce. And they're. I guarantee they're not doing their best work if they're doing all this mental Olympics to try to figure out who they can be and where they can be their whole selves or usually how to stifle who they are. No one can come up with best ideas or do the best work under those circumstances.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Right. From a competitive advantage side, too, which is Something I like to talk about is to welcome and recruit for employees in a typical sort of corporate America environment, to extend and, and offer resources for that recruitment process. And then within the company culture, it's only in my mind, with the speed at which our world is going, you're going to be broadening what you're actually getting from a competitive advantage side. Because, again, if you're hiring people that you think, oh, I've never actively pursued neurodivergent graphic designers or coders or, you know, HR employees to specifically hire or retain, what are you then saying about who you're actually serving outside the company?
Because, as you mentioned at the beginning, like, the, you know, whatever is happening within neurodiversity, it's not going away. Right. Like, this is growing, the conversation's growing, the vulnerability is high, the shame is decreasing about this. And I love that. Right. As, as someone in this space, I think that's phenomenal. And it's, it's saying, like, you can't turn away from this kind of neurotype within customers. And I would. I think what we're talking about more is the different neurotypes that you're serving, too.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah. You're missing out on a huge part of the 20% of the market.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: What I talk a lot about with executives and senior leaders is mirroring the customer base, the communities that you hope to serve. And so to your point, if our executive leadership team looks and behaves a certain way and tends to be more neurotypical, for example, tends to be more straight or closeted or male and white, that's your leadership team. That's corporate America. Even nonprofits are very much run by dominant group members. And so if that's the case, like, what perspective are you potentially missing by not mirroring the communities you hope to serve?
Because a lot of times companies will tell me, well, yeah, we have this percentage of our employees or this, that and the other, but you go up to leadership, and that's rarely the case. And so there's this disconnect of, like, well, you can be here, but you can't, like, be successful here.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Do you find that, though, that, that. That's so generational. Like, I'm, I'm like, you know, geriatric, millennial, like, 83 baby sandwiched in between you.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: I'm 82, so I feel you.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: So we're very at home. Very at home. You know, I, I love being an xennial. I freaking love it. I think I could talk on a tangent about this forever, but I Say that is that conferences, industry wide conferences that, that have new leaders in tech that are, you know, young Gen Z up to, you know, middle aged baby boomers and that leadership, as I've spoken at companies, goodness gracious, it looks different.
I mean it is. And even I always say my parents are boomers and they defy it. They're always, we're not really. I'm like, well, you can't run away from the year you were born. Okay? Like you can't, you can't change.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: And you don't have to accept the stereotypes.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: No, absolutely not. And then there's the unconscious, subconscious rights. What things do you find from a generational point?
[00:13:00] Speaker B: Yeah, from a generation. I think putting a generational lens on allyship is really interesting because you know, if you look back to baby boomers for example, you know, really, they built the modern workforce post World War II and it was very military, chain of command driven, very, if you watch the TV show Mad Men kind of era and it hasn't changed that much. Covid did create quite a shift, right? I mean you could argue flexibility work, virtual work definitely shifted and we're seeing a regression in that. But what's interesting if you fast forward to Gen Z, they were raised at the height of immigration and so their generation by nature has no primary race.
Hmm.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: And that is really spooky. I think to other generations that the white race in the United States was always the majority is no longer the case and just by sheer numbers will no longer be the case for future generations as well because of how the children will be created from diverse identities. So it's this conundrum that I think people are in with this is the future workforce, but we're not quite ready yet to embrace that.
I don't know, Gen Z monster did a study and Gen Z, they found Gen Z, 83% of Gen Z, when they look for jobs, these are folks born late 90s to early 2010s, 83% look for diversity and inclusion. They look comb through websites, they look at leadership teams, they look at your annual report. So if we think this work is going away, I don't think Gen Z is going to allow it.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Gen Z is different than us millennials. You know, we came into the workforce in the early 2000s and we were quickly told like great ideas about inclusion, but like we're not doing that.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: You can do anything you or like be what you, whoever you want to.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Be, except the problem's already solved. So I don't know what you're talking about. I'm like, but there's no. And they're like, oh yeah, we solved that problem. I don't think we did. Just do your work. And it's like, okay, so we got a different message. And they could do that because you think about like the dot com bubble that happened, 2008, financial crisis. Millennials really haven't had a lot of power in the workforce by numbers and unemployment.
Gen Z is coming at a time when baby boomers are hitting record retirement rates these next few years. So they are leaving the workforce.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: And they will need to be replaced. And AI is not going to replace those jobs, those senior level knowledge jobs. And so we will be promoting millennials. We'll be stepping into senior leadership roles at record rate. Senior. Next few years we're going to need Gen Z folks to step into middle management roles more quickly than we ask millennials. And they're not being equipped with any of these skills. Especially right now in this crosshairs of backlash. I just keep thinking like good luck y'. All.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: I not, I don't think this is toxic positivity, but one of the nicest byproducts. I've been talking and sharing my journey as a, you know, profound autism mom and sort of the shock of the system to my body and then to what that means for my potential to work.
And when I speak to it, I always feel like I'm speaking to the audience of parents or caregivers, you know, women, women and men our age.
And the best questions come from those that are like Gen Z, that are, that are hired already. This is not, you know, new, new to the workforce. Gen Z, you know, women and men, early young professionals in their mid-20s. They are so curious, Julie, about how they can help outside of their job. It is a.
It has become such a market of data that I receive during my talks. When I started speaking a few years ago, it floored me every time. I'm like, gosh, who are your parents? Can I meet your. Because I think it does stem from an infra terminal family system. I always step away thinking if they're asking questions and they are in the workforce, hopefully that grows in spades. Because if you have a 25 year old who is not a parent, who is, you know, fresh out of college or you know, their trade school, if they're staying positive to how they can help regardless of their gender, which I females tend to tend to befriend and do the village more innately, I think that's A positive sign. I really do.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: Right, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. We know with curiosity, you know, you can't be judgmental when you're curious. Things can't happen in your brain at the same time. And there is kind of like an appetite for younger people because until age 25, you know, our brain's not really fully developed. So once it is like I suspect those like pathways have hardened a little bit and we get a little less curious because we've been there, done that, seen it.
Whereas we're younger, we're more malleable. And this will be the exciting thing to watch in the workforce as Gen Z becomes the majority of the workforce in short order in the next few years. They have the representation, they have the inclusive mindset. I think a lot of, I don't necessarily want to think the world will go back to normal because the trains left the city station, but I mean seriously do think like there will be a new normal that comes out of this that demands inclusion. Not just to resolve some of the pain that's been caused in the short term and probably enduring few years, but also like that's just the path forward for people that are going to be our future leaders. That's just so obvious to them because that's how they were raised.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: They went through social movements like they went through things we didn't go through. Right.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: I mean they did not have Nokia phones that said doodle doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo like when love actually plays every year. And I think that's my first ringer. What's one thing that leaders can do to make a small change when it comes to inclusion, specifically, you know, around the neurodiversity topic and population?
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I'm sure your listeners know this. 20% of the potential workforce is divergent. So do you want to appeal to future employees, customers you want to serve? I think that's just one is have a strong why for this and try not to make it purely about business but the human case as well. I mean don't you want to be a neuro inclusive employer where you're sought after and these skills are highly valued that folks can bring that may have cognitive differences and think differently and we see it as a good thing. So that's one is just really get clear on the why and then once you have the why, the methods of which you go after I think can be a lot more intentional and consistent over time.
So I encourage leaders to really think about folks in your. Who do you spend time with?
Who are the majority of people you spend time with are they like you. Back to our affinity bias conversation.
Most people spend time with people that are the same race, same gender, you know, same kind of interests, neurotypical neurodiverse. You know, we tend to attract, gravitate towards people like us and we don't learn as much from people like us. So how can you diversify your network?
Maybe just take a snapshot of the top 10 people you choose to spend time with that's in your orbit and think about how similar and different they are to you and your identities and lived experiences and then make an intentional set of a commitment to really diversify that. And it's, I think this is the big challenge for people is they don't know how to do that. Like, well, where do I go? What book do I read? Who do I ask?
Just put your radar up. Be looking for people in your organization that you could be helpful for. Maybe you see a high potential young performer that lacks the confidence, maybe tap them on the shoulder, you know, ping them and say, hey, I've noticed you did A, B and C. I'd love to know what support looks like for you and your career. Could I be helpful?
That type of thing.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: That question. Oh my gosh, that question. What does support look like for you? And that, you know, self advocacy is tough because support has this difficult, terrible word attached to it, which is weak. Yeah, right. It's horrible. I mean, and at the same time, I really believe that the strength of an organization comes down to identifying where those risky weak spots are and fortifying in a way that don't look the same as the other parts of the system. Right. You know, the comfort of even being able to ask that question. What does support look like to you? Could it be visual schedules, A visual agenda even? I mean, I, I got a report, I got an email back from someone at a company I spoke with and she said, I, I started doing a. A visual agenda on top of just the document sent, knowing that she had a couple nervous staff members.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah, they want to know what to expect just to expect.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: She said it ended up being more beneficial to my typical employees than I thought.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Everyone wants to know expectations.
Yeah.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Because they have no expectations of it. And they're like, they said, you know, they ended up feeling like the flow of the meeting was more. It resonated deeper. And I thought, how cool that we can start saying this isn't like a neurodiverse support. It might have originally, that was the intent. But how cool that the. When you Debrief something about a support in the workforce and it ends up helping everyone.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yep. The rising tide lips all.
It's true. Yeah. I mean, it goes back to like the curb cut effect. Right when we started cutting curbs for folks that were wheelchair users. It benefited people like me that ride bikes and push strollers and have knee problems too, like.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: And it goes back to your question earlier.
I think we think accommodations are going to be so costly.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: The key word with accommodation is reasonable. So reasonable. And 50% of accommodations cost nothing.
So instead of thinking about it as this costly, huge endeavor, just think what are some baby steps we can take. And if you just sit back as a leader and ask that question of your team, hey, I'd like to know how to make this team or this workplace more inclusive. I'd love to hear your ideas. What do you think? What could we do to be more supportive? Just listen and you don't have to agree to all the ideas. Just simply listen and prioritize a few. And if you show you listened, you care, you're going to do something with the information.
People will show up for you and do much better work for you if they feel supported in that way.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah. The momentum grows as it affects even people beyond who you expected it to and having that translate outside of the workforce where then people discuss your team and your company in greater detail. And as you said, the world is changing and we are a global village at this point and it is a lot of information to intake and I think pressing pause and as you said, these small, reasonable accommodations, if we can get that into our head, that it doesn't have to be premier focus of every day and of every meeting and it just becomes this natural built in part of it. Julie, talk to us about your book launching in August and the driving force behind you getting this into print and what you, what you hope to.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for that. The book is titled we want you an allyship guide for people with Power.
I almost toyed with like another subtitle.
And we all have power because people get. I don't have any power. What are you talking about? It's like, okay, yeah, think about your identities by proxy to power. That's one. If you have social share influence, if you have positional influence in the work or in community serve. We all have power somewhere. How do we use that power for good? And so it's really about.
I went on this learning journey after the election because I was just deeply disturbed by the data around how people voted and really wanted to reengage dominant group members that apparently were not reading the DEI books that I was reading and writing.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Weren't.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I know somehow it wasn't for them. So I wanted to write a book specifically for them. So that's. The pun is we want you. But Uncle Sam is a mosaic of all these different identities. So it's not the traditional Uncle Sam we all know iconically, but it's filled with like, individual actions. So to your point earlier, like things you can do individually, unpacking your fears to understanding your sources of power with activities to craft the what's in it for you, the benefits for you as an ally, and then how to lead you, your team, inclusively with psychological safety, perspective taking, knowing your ally role and how you want to show up as a mentor, a sponsor, et cetera. And then it wraps up with organizational strategy. So it tries to go from individual actions to team actions to more systemic actions like inclusive policies, accommodations, flexibility, caregiving. All these things that systemic issues that have to be addressed in the workplace, like we are not going to be able to, we are not going to have enough people to do the work that we need to do in a few years. And if we don't pivot towards a more inclusive model, we're just not going to have enough workers.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: I mean, customs do drive behaviors. If the system is set up to wildly recruit and include our intended behind the behavior. Right.
I do think the lives of the young, you know, junior associates joining companies will be the reason why that system does change.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I really do.
Inclusive cultures can't be built overnight. Oh, this is back to your word. Competitive advantage. This is the most sustainable competitive advantage you can have. Have an inclusive culture where people want to do their best work and they stay and they're committed to the organization and the work, that's your competitive advantage. People can make widgets overnight drop points.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. But don't you think though that that's like, not political? Like I was, I, you know, I take in everything. I'm, you know, both sides and I was taking in something that was about like the manufacturing industry. And you know, obviously it, it sort of leans one way and I think the core, it's literally the same. It's so the same. It's like people matter in this company, full stop.
Like, full stop.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: That's inclusion.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: I know we've gotten so far away from the idea that ideas come before people.
Right. And I believe that is if there's anything that is nonpartisan in the growth and the change of the system it's that people matter, man.
They do. And I do believe that the work that you're doing and how you're writing and how you're inspiring the leaders to really think and spend their energy thinking about this from their position, I think is wonderful. And I am deeply appreciative for the work that you're doing for your child and my children down the road too. Because, you know, we're all, we are really all part of that system, whether absolutely the veil has been stripped off or not.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's. I think it's easier. I don't know. I was doing this work before my kiddo with autism.
I didn't. Little did I know.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: Universe is like way. Wow. Whoa, Julie.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Oh, now you're going to get some more lived experience.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: Here's some real data for you.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: But as I went down this learning journey with her diagnosis and just what does support look like for her? You know, 85% of autistic people are unemployed. Like, how do we accept that as a society when there's this rich set of skills? So back to your point. I mean, I just don't. I think it's inevitable that people will have to reorient their inclusion efforts if they're scared right now. Okay. But that's short lived. Just. And it's not even a political thing like you said, it's just a human thing. It's a business thing. Like, let's take the politics out of is about making sure people feel included at work and they can do their best work. That's it.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Full stop.
Full stop. Julie Kretz, thank you so much for being here today. I think that this conversation will not only warm the hearts of other parents and mothers and caregivers like mine for what the world looks like and how people outside of our homes are changing it. So thank you for that. And Julie, I'll have all of your info on where to purchase your book coming out in August and where they can get ahold of you for speaking or presenting and all of your consulting work as well.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, you can catch
[email protected] Sarah, thanks so much for.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: There we go. Awesome. And until next time, on the Inch Jones podcast.
