Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: You guys, I can't believe I'm announcing who I have right now. Michelle Dempsey Maltak. I have from so many different avenues of my life, been drawn and compelled to her work. She is not only a mother, a stepmother, but has forged her own path as a specialist and counselor for divorced parents and in how to reclaim your peace and identity post divorce and onwards. Michelle, thank you for being here today.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I'm excited for the conversation.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: Before we jumped on here, I learned a new fact, which was that you have worked with autistic children in a previous life of yours.
And as you know, as a practitioner, but also as an educator, the divorce rate among special needs parents is upwards of 85%. And when I share with people, whether I'm giving a talk or in a peer counseling session, no one's surprised when I say, oh, I'm also separated from my children's father. They say, oh, the stress must be so high. It's a yes. And it forces a way of thinking in a way of life. And I believe that your work is layered in the way you see things and how to react in the way of life that you choose to live. So can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember. So when I, when I was in grad school, I was doing a dual master's program focusing on special education because I have a cousin with autism and cerebral palsy. So I, my aunt really needed help with him, had hired me. I was in my early 20s, so she would hire me, hire me. Like, I would go over there after school, after I was like done with my work day, and I would pick him up, I would take him out. I was really helping him with socialization. And he was verbal but would get very freaked out in public places. And so, I don't know, we just had this connection where I would take him. You know, first we would, like just get drive through and I would like have him order it. And then we, like, graduated to restaurants and then we'd go to stores and I'd have him, like, ask for things. And it was just such a beautiful experience that I knew I wanted to work with, with the special needs population. And my first internship experience was in a small school, specialized school for children with autism. Not just children with autism, but I was the assistant in the autism classroom. It was an early interconnected classroom.
Children were, the children were only four years old. And I remember thinking to myself, whoa. Because I grew up with divorced parents, almost all of the families were divorced already. And, you know, I remember like, having a schedule of like, okay, Mom's day, Dad's day for each kid. And I was like, wow. And I really. It really blew my mind, but didn't surprise me. There was one family in particular who hired me to babysit on the weekends, and they were not divorced. And they had triplets to three boys, two with autism. And I remember going to their house and they would just fight. They were constantly fighting. And it was like, you know, that's not how he was. We get him to ask for his stuff. And, you know, I'm sure this is triggering for you, but being married is stressful in itself. Having a typically developing child is stressful in itself. But then you add in, you know, you have a child where the needs are. Are different. And a lot of times what I see is there's one parent who is like, all in reading the books, working with the specialist, taking the advice, trying the things I remember when I was. When I. This was 20 years ago. The thing for children with autism was to be gluten free. So, like, half the parents would be like, he can't have gluten. And then the other parent would be like, oh, please, that's bullshit. You know, so these. These things that would come up, and I see it with parents now where a lot of times one parent has a very hard time even accepting the diagnosis or that there is something wrong. So that in their mind, if they ignore it and they don't follow the IEP and they're not following the recommendations of the occupational or speech therapist, then, like, nothing's really wrong. And then you have the other parent who's trying anything and everything. So I think that's where a lot of the stress comes from.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: I always say, like, it's not the children that are causing the divorce rates. It's that the communication issues in the lens of life that we both had, or anyone that's a divorce with special needs children have. It is exacerbated so profoundly when given children who are not what you're. White picket fence aspiration or ghost like figures of what you thought life was gonna be like.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: It just makes it so clear and in the best way sometimes because it reminded me, gosh, these things rose to the top regardless. Now this is making it very, very easy to see.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it just shines another light on all the glaring differences and some of the stuff that maybe you could have brushed under the rug in a different reality are just highlighted that much more. But if co parenting is hard, co parenting children with special needs is that much harder. And it just blows my mind how many parents I see where one is really just trying to follow. Like this is what the IEP says. This is the routines that the child needs to follow after school to not lead to some sort of regression or meltdown. And, and the other one who's just like, well screw you, you're not the boss of me.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Like man, it just exacerbates everything.
And you, you know, you share a lot on your, on your platform, which I love, is that while you can divorce a person, your interactions with them do not really change your reaction to them. Right. And in those choices of therapies and therapy schedules and co parenting, it does add a layer of complexity and, and at the same time, the choice, I always say it's the choice. I've learned so much from what you shared in that quick space. My choice to react differently. I'm no longer their assistant, I'm no longer their partner. I'm, I'm their mother first and foremost with a very strong guide to having them become the best version of themselves. And if the co parent is not on board with that, it's really not my problem anymore.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, but there's so many people who are like they, they should do it this way. And it's like, well, you could spend all of your time in your post divorce life where you could be flourishing and working on yourself. You could spend all that time trying to get this person to be the thing that couldn't even be in your marriage. Correct or.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Or there's the other side.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: The, the mindset shift from feeling weighed down with a co parent of special needs children to then the autonomy of being the single mom with it. It's almost like choose your hard.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Right?
[00:06:26] Speaker A: It's both are hard.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: My, I feel like my greatest gift in life is helping people shift their perspective because like everything about your life is a matter of, or how you choose to feel in life is a matter of perspective. Like the glass could be half full or half empty. Like there's. I don't know, I just.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: We all have a default setting. I joke about this in my talks, but it's true. No one wakes up at 30 something years old with, with their second on the way and then their third in their mid 30s and goes, you know what? I want two kids with non speaking autism. Yeah, like that was never a thought of mine and I didn't expect it. And yet I am the best version of myself because I switched off the default setting of what I expected. Life to be.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Well, yeah. I mean, expectations are the root of all heartache. And, you know, they say, like, we plan and God laughs, and it is really amazing to find yourself in a situation that you never expected to be in, but yet you're doing it, and you're thriving, and you're able to make the most of it day in and day out.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Right there is. And like. Like, I love what you saying, that you're. You're selling a mindset and you're doing it beautifully by showing people that you do it, too. I think a lot of times, especially online, I'm. I'm sure you get trolls. I get trolls for saying you're. You're. You're pawning off a business from your children's special needs. No, I'm showing you what it's like to live and be fully alive in spite of the fact that life threw me to beautiful towhead curveballs.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Talk to me about your own trajectory. Like, you were divorced. You have parents that are divorced. When you realize that you, Michelle, were able to harness this mindset and inspire others. What. What. What point was that for you? Was it right after your divorce? Was it in the midst of it?
[00:08:06] Speaker B: You know, I never in a million years set out for this to be like my. You know, I've always loved educating people. I mean, I was a teacher. Right.
Um, when I had my daughter, I stopped working. Well, when I was pregnant with her, I went on bed rest, and I. I should say, I lost my job. Um, and there was no such thing as tenure down here where I was working when I moved from New York. And anyway, so I'm like, what am I going to do now? And I started. I've always loved to write, so I was freelancing for a bunch of different publications about motherhood and, like, babies and parenting. And then as my marriage was ending, I. I always had this, like, really delusional. Not delusional, but, like, overconfident feeling of, like, I could totally handle this. Like, I'm gonna be fine on my own.
Obviously, there's been challenges, but I.
I kind of felt like I had to just keep going and, like, not miss a beat. And so I was very forthcoming with some of the publications I had been writing for about the fact that, like, can't really write about date night and motherhood. Like. Like, I can write about single motherhood. And they were like, oh, that's interesting. That's an angle nobody's taking. So as I was writing more and more about what it was like to be A divorced mom with a two year old and all your friends are still married and all of these things. My following started to grow. There wasn't much of this on social media back then, and it kind of just took off and spawned a life of its own. And then at the end of 2019, I started putting out more and more content on Instagram about my reality and co parenting. And people are like, oh my God, yes. Like I feel so seen. And I was like, wow, this is something. And in the beginning of 2020, people were just like sending me their hard hitting legal questions and there were so many things I didn't know how to answer. So I did the podcast. I started the podcast not knowing a pandemic was about to hit and really helped blow the podcast up. Cause we were all just home like listening to podcasts. And that led to my getting certified and trained as a coach and specialist. Co parenting specialist is probably the proudest title I've had yet in my life. And then my book deal. And so, yeah, I just kind of fell back into education, but in a very different way. And I love it. I think, you know, the greatest gift you can give, like we said earlier, is as a woman, your role in the universe, I think, is to give, to give this support to someone else in the area of life that you've already figured out, you know. Yes. And I try to do it in a really real way. Like I still have my own co parenting challenges. Eight years later, I still have an ex husband, I have a blended family, I have a stepchild. Like, I have all of the things that everybody else.
I've just really done the work to educate myself and I continue to do that. I'm always learning. So it's. Yeah, I didn't expect to be here, but here I am.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: The ability to say yes to things that come your way that you would never in a million years had thought and realize that in saying yes, that is actually continuing on the path you're meant to be on. While Yellow Brick Road, right?
I never thought I got to speak locally in Westfield last night. Autism awareness. I'm like looking around like, who just did that? You know? And I know it was myself, but I think it was all these small yeses to lead us to the best version of who we are. And that's. That's my guiding light with my younger two. I always say my oldest God gave me her, and then said, hold my beer and then hold it again. Because she was the girl that in a small Upper west side apartment, you said don't touch the stove. And she didn't touch the stove, you know, and then Millie came around and rocked my world. But because of Millie being who she is, the kids, as you know, with, working with them, they do not know how to be anything but themselves. The best light in my life is having children that go, this is like, who I am. Like, love me or leave me. Millie has. I was telling this to someone last night. She's got this, like, Pantene pro ve strawberry blonde hair. It's thick, and she's constantly, like, rubbing it out of her face. That girl does not care what her hair looks like. She doesn't care what your hair looks like. She doesn't care that she has pretty hair. It's just her hair. And it's one of the most amazing things that I eventually learned about myself was like, if I'm allowing them to be the best version of who they are, why am I not doing that for myself?
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think there's also something really speaking of perspective shifts, you know, the. The thing with. When I was working with children with autism, autism was like a relatively new, like, field and like, ABA and like, all the social stuff. And I remember, like, the constant conversation being around the social deficits and how they don't take social cues and the eye contact and. But I kept seeing it as, like, what. What a blessing to not have to, like, base your day on, like, the social cues of others. Like, you could just go through your life, like, fudge it. I love triangles. I just.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: I don't want to.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Yeah, love triangles. And was going to talk about triangles whether you wanted to hear it or not. Like, just fully living a truth with no care or concern about how it made other people feel. Like there was. There's like a.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Because that's not harming anyone.
[00:13:02] Speaker B: It was a beautiful freedom. That was the way I saw it. I rem thinking, like, me growing up hyper aware of, like, how was I making people feel? And, like, am I going to fit in? And do I look good enough? And all of these things. And here you have a population of people who are just like, I'm going to focus on the things I like and I don't care. Like, that's it.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: Live in Jersey, it's pizza Friday. Every. Every Friday. And she. My daughter walks in from school, drops the bag, knows the pizza's on the stove, grabs a slice, goes into the family room, grabs the control. She looks at you. She's like, turn the super Y on. Now it's Friday. I'm Gonna go sit on the couch. And it's so damn pure. All I want to be like is that I want to be like, I've had a day. I'm gonna go read.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: And not feel apologetic and just be who I am. And then, you know, my son exhibits it so differently. He just wants to love me.
The girls don't want to do that. They don't want to love me. But. But it's authentic to him. And he's still autistic. It is so powerful when you realize if you just let people show you who they are, believe them, like, let. The kid loves triangles. He's not making that up. He really does love them.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: I still to this day I. You know how. Like, I don't know. I guess when you're a teacher, there are. Not that you play favorites, but there are certain kids that you're going to remember forever.
Just this boy's love of triangles. And like, the way he said triangle, he didn't say it correctly. And it was just the cutest freaking thing. And I just, I always think about that when my daughter's doing like geometry or whatever. It's. I don't know, like, what a powerful, binding memory.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: What are.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Whatever happened to Dominic and his love of triangles?
[00:14:31] Speaker A: I actually think they're really paying attention. They've got a sixth sense about them and they are so hyper aware that they are able to filter through some of the bullshit of everything.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Because the love that they do give and the empathy they do have, I see in glimpses, specifically, like if they're listening to music or watching a favorite Daniel Tiger episode or something that's around friendships. They are both paying such close attention to friendships and family and love. And I think maybe they're just an expression of that. Maybe they're just here to teach us that. Back to the work that you do. Because I just think that the way you've leaned in is so incredible. Do you find that women and men who seek out your advice on how to co parent best are the ones that are changing the narrative on how this can best go? Or do you feel like there's still so many people that are going, I'm out. I'm done. I'm just going to be done and move on. I don't need any help. I don't need any help figuring this out?
[00:15:26] Speaker B: So the majority of people who come to me are really deeply concerned about not messing up their kids. You know, like we've. We've already accepted as a society that divorce in itself is not what messes up the kids. It's how, it's how the people behave thereafter that leave the lasting impressions on, on the children. And so the people who do seek me out, for the most part, excuse me, are the ones who are like, I want to learn from you. Tell me how you do it. Like, what can I do better? And I really respect that. Every now and then, though, this is why we do consults. I'll have somebody who just refuses, like, they don't care.
They don't care about how the child feels because their feelings are more important. And this person wronged me. And my child should know.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: And no one has ever gone through a divorce ever before.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: My comments, people who are like, well, my child should know that their father. I'm like, why? Like, why rob them of their childhood? Because you can't control your emotions. So there are still plenty of people out there who think that, like, they've got this and their kids are going to be fine and one day my kids will grow up and they'll understand.
No, they won't.
No, they won't. I just talked about this in my story in my. On a post yesterday. Like, I was like, do me a favor. Like, I'm a child of divorce. I'm here to tell you that, like, we don't understand why you had to put all of your stress and feelings on us. Like, we didn't need that. And I listen something I repeat to my daughter all the time because I needed to hear it so much as a child is, mommy is here to take care of you. It is not your job to take care of me.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Right. I love that you're respectful and I love that you love me and you want to make me happy. But guess what? I love you. No matter whether or not you went out of your way for me today or you asked me how my day. Like, that's something that is so important for children of divorce to hear. Because when you are in the midst of these two adult humans that are behaving like animals, you shut yourself down and your needs because you don't want to take up too much space and make anybody more upset. And like, it sucks to be a child of divorce and your parents think, oh, they're fine because they're not coming to me with anything. It's because they're scared to because your shit has taken center stage.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: That's right. I think one of. I've noticed my. My typical oldest Will, she doesn't do this consciously. And it's a beautiful Recognizing of it from me to her. She'll say, dad's girlfriend made us, made me this amazing raspberry pie. Now, a, she knows I don't cook. B, she knows that I don't really like pies. But I know that what she's trying to do is to see what I feel about the situation. I'm like, that is. Oh my God, that's so awesome. I, I'm terrible at making pies. Was it so good? And she's just telling me a fact about dad's girlfriend. And I love it because I, it gives me a live opportunity to say to her, without saying, you're giving her permission. Giving her permission.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: And this always kills me when moms especially will be like, well, my daughter doesn't want anything to do with dad's new girlfri.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: And I'm like, terrible. That's horrific.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: Well, why is that? What is, what has she heard from you? And they'll always end up confessing. Well, they know I don't like her. And I talk shit about her hair. You know, she. So it's like, yeah, you know what? Now you've conditioned your daughter to think that she has to feel a certain way around you, and it's spilling over into her relationship with dad, and that's your fault.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: I know that. I don't want to ever come across as any pedestal, but I do believe that in the healthiest of ways, more love is more love. I really, really believe it. I think there is a possibility for it in family with, with children and families of divorce like it, there can be more love.
And it's gonna be the long game. It's gonna be the real long game. And it's. But I see these little morsels of it as it's played out. And especially with the love that's then provided for, specifically Millie and Mac, because of who's been brought into our lives and how they've been loved. And it can be really wonderful. It can be fruitful. It plants you in a different garden. You never expected to be in that garden, but you're there, you know, And I, it's been, you know, I, I, I'm just so thankful for the work that you do and for what you provide to not only typical parents, but to the special needs population of parents too, because we have such a high divorce rate and we don't talk about it nearly enough about the stressors of it. And the work that you do not only validates moving on and beginning, but, but what it means to be beautifully begin again so thank you so much. I realized very quickly that as Millie wasn't hitting milestones, I needed a way to celebrate her. And so I wasn't going.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: That's so beautiful. I love that.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: Thank you. I mean it. It was one of those things I was like, why can I not celebrate the inch stone of her? She's not going to hit the milestone. Like that's not happening. She might hit it one day.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: But let's celebrate the inch zones of Millie's development. Not over what her sister did at the same time. So I am here to celebrate inch stones. So what would be number one? What is an inch stone win of your own, Michelle? What is one inch in that you've recently made? And what would be a piece of inch stone advice that you could give to special needs divorced parents?
[00:20:13] Speaker B: An inch zone of my own. First of all, I love that like I think we should all be treating ourselves with that much kindness of like not forcing ourselves to make these big giant like leaps of change. You know, we're in this era of like everyone's healing. I think for me, an inch stone right now is I have finally my self compassion no longer feels foreign to me. Like I've finally gotten to a place where I know and believe fully that having self compassion is what I deserve.
So that's an inch zone for me because I've grappled with it the last two years and the boundaries I've set both for myself in social relationships and for my family. And I felt guilty for a long time and I'm finally in a place where I don't. So that is definitely my inch zone. Win is like love that I value myself enough to know that like I deserve the same love I give to others.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: And it stems internal for sure.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: And, and I see it in my day to day life how I'm living that example of like saying no to something that's going to rob me of my energy and I need my energy for other things or, you know, like taking that hour out to go to yoga, which is a new thing I started. I don't know if you guys have heard of this thing called yoga. Very popular.
I'm about 20 years late to the yoga party, but it was something I wanted to, I wanted to start for so long and I finally did and I'm like, excuse me, have you heard of this thing?
[00:21:35] Speaker A: It's coming from India.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: I'm doing this thing called downward dog. I'll call you later, Chaturango.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Bye.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: And, and I think the advice I would give to parents with parents of children with special needs who are divorcing is don't be shy to ask for support. I think I've always said parents of typically developing kids, like everybody should have a neutral party that is there to help guide them. Like if you can find that. If you can find a person that can help implement the IEP in both homes. You know, when I was in New York, I remember, I don't know what the law is now, but back then parents didn't know, but they were entitled to a certain number of hours of like, home care, like rest of the care. Right. So do your education. See what resources are out there to help you and your partner or your former ex partner, give your child the best attempt at keeping things consistent and meeting their needs. Because, you know, there's room for your feelings and your emotions about the divorce. But you have to remember that you're still doing a very important job of parenting someone who really relies on you for so much.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: It's the greatest Mount Everest climb that I never chose, but I get to see the vistas and like, look.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Look what it's showing you about yourself, Sarah. Like, oh, yeah. I truly believe single moms are. I mean, nobody could do what a single mom does. But you, you have it in a much different way. And you're doing it like you could literally do anything. It's very inspirational.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Thank you. It's, it's. I think we could go down the complexity rabbit hole. There's so many factors to it. And just being to your point about self compassion, I know what I can do and I know how far I can push myself before that energy starts to wane the wrong way. And in capitalizing on it and leaning into my children being who they are, it's, it's allowed me to help others. I'm very thankful for you. I'm thankful for your work. I will absolutely be promoting as much as I can as we launch this. I think that your words are going to echo so deeply and it's permeating through not only just the divorce co parenting world, but just in parenting alone. So thank you.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: You're cool. You're awesome. And send some sunshine up to New York.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: I'll try.
[00:23:44] Speaker A: Please. All right. It was lovely to connect. I really appreciate you and of course, good luck with everything.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: You too. Keep in touch.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: I will. All right. Bye, Michelle.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Bye.
