Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Inchstones podcast. When a child might be hitting, screaming, dropping to the floor, simply just being unable to do something that we know that they can do. But the instinct is often to ask, how do we stop this kind of behavior? That's a question that just pulses through the minds of so many of us, parents, caregivers, and anyone working with children with autism. My guest today is Laura Pettix. She is a pediatric occupational therapist, author of the Sensory Code and really the voice behind the OT Butterfly. Her work asks us to really begin somewhere else. What is happening? I love this question so much. What is happening in the child's nervous system? Because for parents and children, specifically children like mine that are non speakers, that distinction matters so, so much when your child just cannot easily tell you, this hurts, mom, this is too loud. I need to move. I need to get around. I'm overwhelmed. The body starts communicating so much more before we even understand the message behind. And I know what I talk a lot about in here. What is the figure and then what is the ground? And today we're gonna talk with Lara about sensory processing, regulation versus compliance, which is such a big one. Motor planning and you know, really what happens also to moms, caregivers like us, what happens to our nervous systems when we're running on fumes too. So, Laura, thank you so much for being here today on the Inchdens podcast.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Sarah, thank you so much for having me. And to all of the Inchstones listeners, I am very excited to be here and I get to nerd out on my favorite topic. This is really not work to me at all. It's genuinely filling me up every single day. So I am grateful to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Awesome. I feel the same way about the work I get to do too. There's nothing better. So, Laura, let's jump right into this. How do you distinguish won't from I can't right now because I think this is such a simple yet complex way.
I think parents, teachers and all these different clinicians, we interpret nervous system overload as this refusal. So how do you distinguish? Tell us how we can distinguish. Won't I just can't right now to
[00:02:10] Speaker B: bring parents and caregivers into their own world to think about times that might draw the same emotion.
So think about the end of your day, a Thursday or Friday.
It's around 5 o'. Clock. We have to start thinking about dinner. We've had a long week. We lost childcare. Maybe our kid was refusing to go to school. We were Also managing the household. We were also working. When it's time for dinner and we have the option to cook a nice homemade meal for our family or order out. And what do we sometimes say when we're sitting there with a decision? We're just like, I can't, I just can't even think about what to eat. I can't even get the pans. Just even the thought of doing all that, I can't. I Capacity, easy route. I'm done. I can't, I'm done. I can't. Yeah, it's. I, I, I can't. So it's, that's a very surface, level, simplistic thing. But just getting in that mindset of when you are tapped out, sure, you can push back that breaking point if you needed to, if you wanted to, if you could, but that hitting the wall of really feeling like, no, I can't, and being able to be an adult and in control of your own choices of what you do that day allows you to say, I'm doing this instead. But imagine someone else was like, give me your phone. No, I'm not letting you order out. You still have to eat. You have to cook, you have to make a meal. No choice, even completely against your will, what would your behavior be? How would that meal turn out? How would your level turn out at the end of the night if you could communicate that. If you can't communicate the intent, we're gonna see it through your mood.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah, the intent. Like, I always think about the intention behind it. Like, anything without chosen intent completely morphs the product that is or the behavior that's being produced.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Because most of us can do things even when we don't want to. Like, I really don't want to, but I guess I have to. But there comes a point when really you, you feel a wall with your capacity and with that, it's a real boundary in terms of your access to parts of your brain that you need to complete whatever that is. And so the outcome is either going to be like, something that you're, that is not the right way, you would have wanted to do that, or you're going to do it and you're going to be irritated, you're going to be frustrated, grumpy, you're going to be not pleasant to be around. Like, it's not just force your way through it and it turns out fine and dandy, especially when we're talking about the nervous system.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: So. And I love this next question because it came to me before I sent you an email Then what are we missing? Like, what is it that we keep missing within this question of like, so is it sensory? Is it behavior? Like, yes. Is it even the. Are we even asking the right questions?
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah, this is. I could talk about this for hours. And I will go to my grave debating, debating this question when very well meaning parents who. And teachers who are curious about the child in front of them and they're seeing what they're seeing is a behavior. A child refusing to do work, a child throwing clothes across the room, whatever the behavior is. And the question that the adults are seeing is like, is this a sensory thing or is it a behavior? And I always jump in right there, right there, and I say it's a behavior, period. But what your question is, is, is my child doing this on purpose to control something, to manipulate something, to have the power, or are they doing it because they can't help it? That's what, that's what I think parents and educators are trying to ask. And my job then is to help them see everything our kids are doing is a behavior. It's just different kinds of behavior. Even the, the knots, even the ability to ignore something and remain regulated and focused is a behavior in and of itself.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Is a behavior. Laughing at something as a behavior, crying is a behavior. Hitting, throwing, they're all behaviors. We want to know, is there a sensory component to this or is there something else? Is it a communication gap? Is there a cognitive functioning gap? Is there executive functioning, needs? There's so many other questions to ask, and I don't think that parents can or should be responsible for getting to the root of it themselves. That's why we have experts like occupational therapists, speech therapists, psychologists who dig deeper what the parent's job is, to even stop and even think about that question to begin with and say, my child's behavior, is this, Is this something that I. Is this something that they're needing a connection with? Is there something in the environment that's stressing their nervous system out?
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I, I love this. It's that you're tapping into something that is so important in my own work, which is I really believe mothers and caregivers have all this information that they collect about their, you know, specifically ones with autism or apraxia.
And the knowledge is so dense. Right. And we're not here to say that the mom or the caregiver knows what the solution is, but oftentimes the mom, parent, caregiver can be the person that goes, maybe you should start looking Here, that's what I like. Can we look at the environment?
Is it possible? And then allow the experts and the team that you've built to dive in deeper as you said? I love that we're touching on that.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Just recognizing that this feels a little bit more complex than just telling my kid to just do it or just get over it or just calm down, just stop moving, because that's not working and, or it's not really aligning well, because when I do that, I could see it's so hard for my child. So just that job alone of recognizing that your child needs a more specialized support or intervention plan or just second set of eyes to help you figure that out. That is your main job as the parent is to, to notice those things and, and have some grace for yourself as well. Knowing that you're not expected to know all of this just. But just because you have. Just because your label is mom or dad or parent, it doesn't give you all that knowledge immediately. So it's okay. But just noticing that is very, very important job.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: You know, the sensory detective in all of us, right. Without becoming consumed by hypervigilance is a massive part in this, right? Because I think that there's such love behind all this unconscious collection of data around behaviors or sensory import, sensory impulses, or like you said, executive dysfunction. And what these all could mean, what, what, what patterns actually matter as a, as an ot, what do you suggest to allow parents to maybe free themselves from that hyper vigilance and just stay, you know, aware but not really enter that like insane hyper vigilant mode that can. I'm guilty of this. I can become insanely hypervigilant and it can become almost obsessive.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Once we start, it's like once you start learning about a clue or a behavior, you start seeing it everywhere. And then you think you have to like, address every single one. Right? So I think the first step is I. It's always admitting there's a problem, right? Like you, you're aware. Okay, I know that some of this hyper vigilance is not serving me right now. I know that's a part of my brain that thinks it needs to do that to keep me safe. But logically I know I'm safe, I'm in control, and there's only so much I can do, right? So if you're seeing your child display certain behaviors of like, constantly needing some sort of stimulation, whether they're chewing on things or they're spinning or constantly tapping or Moving or there's certain things that your child is doing that they're avoiding and it makes certain morning routines, bedtime routines a little difficult. You definitely can't be addressing all of them all at once. So the first thing I do is I say let's cross things off our list that we don't really need to focus on right now. So behaviors that are relating to sensory seeking input, that are not harming your child, that are not harming anyone else, and that is ultimately serving a purpose for them to do something. So, you know, we get a lot of kids who are vocal stimming, who are hand slapping, who are doing lots of repetitive movements that instinctively, some educators, some therapists, some parents ask them to stop or try to replace it right away. And I usually remind them, I say, well, at this point, time and place right now, is there any harm in letting your child do something that feels good to their body? Because the minute you try to stop that, that need doesn't really go away.
It, it's, it's going to just kind of continue to simmer under and then you're going to see other behaviors come out.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: So, and that's, that's the, that's the regulation versus compliance. And that's exactly again, when you're living in it and you see it and you, and you employ these kinds of understandings around, you know, stems that you might not understand, you will realize quickly that if you allow them, their capacity actually grows. Right.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And it, it really does take this, the adult, to understand that this is how that child needs to be right now in order to even be open to learning or participating in whatever it is.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Which makes it really hard when you know, have an OT session at 2pm on a Thursday and you only, only have from 2 to 3 and you're supp. Work on these fine motor opening and closing things. But they're hand flapping. So then we've got the therapist saying, quiet hands, let's first open this and then we can do that. And I, I see the push and pull and it is tough. As a therapist who has maybe a checklist of things that we're supposed to work on, insurance only gives us X amount of visits parents are expecting. When they pick up that I'm going to tell them everything we worked on. But your kid was hand flapping for 30 minutes. What am I as a therapist supposed to do? And I don't have an easy answer for that. The only thing I can say is that we just, for everyone in this equation to understand where that stimming is coming from. And zoom out past that 2 to 3pm therapy session and think of what the child has been through in that day already. Maybe they have been suppressing their stims all day because the teacher kept physically putting their hand down and telling them to stop stimming or to stop doing that. And here they are again. And now their nervous system is like. Has been. Imagine your car, you know, has been. Has been like blinking a certain light, warning you of something, and then you don't take care of it. Then your car starts making a weird sound. You still don't take care of it. And then your car starts, like, moving slower. Still don't take care of it. And then all of a sudden your tires pop. Things are smoking. You literally cannot continue sitting in that car or going forward or it's going to explode. Right? It's. It's making the signal louder. So understanding that as a function of the nervous system is very important for anyone who works with kids with sensory needs or any sort of neurodivergence.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm gonna. We're gonna pivot here to a topic that is really very close and near and dear to me, which is elopement. Because my have. My. I have a little Houdini who
[00:13:51] Speaker B: really
[00:13:51] Speaker A: just cannot get enough of it. He just. He thinks it's the funniest thing in the world. He loves being chased. And it can be from my neighbor that I'm screaming for to help as I'm running down the street. So let's talk about elopement, because this is something. It's my text Chain of Autism Moms. It is a weekly discussion. The police department in my town that I am helping to work with to educate officers on. This is just huge for this community. So sometimes we hear that this, you know, a child is seeking movement. Right. Or input. But like, the elopement is. I mean, it's ridiculously dangerous. Right. And how do we honor. How do we honor. I have to take a deep breath even reading about this kind of thing, because it hits so home. Right. And it hits the hearts of moms. How do we honor that nervous system while still being unequivocally able to say, I can't safely allow this kind of behavior.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: This is a really tough situation that I can only comment on as an outsider. So I think it's. I want to make sure all the listeners know that I have not parented a child who elopes. And even the clients that I worked with, there were only a couple that I heard that eloped mostly during school. And in those senses it was a very clear function and behavior situation of clearly avoiding certain parts of the school day. And so we needed to accommodate. But I know from the community that I serve and that I work with and hear often and watch reels of this and hear about news stories of autistic children eloping and, and that becoming such a safety hazard and a very. And a big danger. And it reminds me of this one that I saw this clip of this. This parent who had a son who continued to elope and her only way of allowing that to happen safely was she.
He would always take the same route. Luckily, she would drive alongside him in the neighborhood and literally just follow him to. But so many things Pop. Who, how are you able to do that? Are you scheduling these jogs? Right, right. Like what if you're in the middle of carrying for your 2 and 3 year old or you're cooking dinner and the house? You can't always do that. But I saw that example and I said that is a parent who is doing the best that she can with the resources she have to allow the child that she has in front of her do the thing that her child needs. That was a fantastic example.
And I know that that's not a practical, like, that's not a practical thing that all parents can do.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah. But I, but I love that example in the sense of. I think sometimes we can forget that we're so rigid about the rules. Well, what will. You know, I'm just going to let my, let, let him or her do that and I'm going to run alongside them.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: We've been so conditioned to think of it as, no, we can't do that. We can't encourage this kind of behavior. We. When maybe the actual action of that movement of that freedom is what they're seeking. I think about that all the time. That I actually love that example because it actually does remind us that sometimes the stipulations we put on these things are a conditioned thought because we are so rigid ourselves, for whatever reason or for whatever culture or society has taught us in our decades of life that who cares if we have the ability for 10 minutes, seven minutes, exactly, exactly.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: To do that. So is it something that some families can do, can try and something that, you know, like you said, if you have a village, a neighborhood around you where everyone kind of keeps an eye, that seems like the most optimal way to, to, to function as a family, as a caregiver, to, to know that people the, the Local police know and things like that. But I, I for sure feel for families that live in big cities and they don't have that. Like that's when it feels like you have to have physical barriers and locks in place, alarm tags, like I, I don't know how, what that would look like for me personally, not even being in those shoes. But from, from a nervous system perspective, you're. Sometimes they are seeking movement, sometimes they are. That is how kids connect with people. They think they're playing hide and seek. They think it's funny when their parents have to come look for them. They're seeking that connection rather than seek attention. Right. It, it could literally be, you know, fight, flight or freeze. This is their flight. It literally could be that. And it's very, very, it is a dangerous thing. But it's also not something that's easy to just like to just stop immediately. So I think the more, the, the more support you can find locally, the help the better.
But knowing that it's coming from a nervous system need for sure.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Is so important.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Right. And I think I'm glad that we're touching on this. It's not this like global recipe for, you know, the child that you have that's eloping. There's so many variables that go into that specific situation. And I think what I always love to say over and over again to moms and caregivers is that there's not a recipe for how that looks like in my family. Even if we both have two 8 year old boys that elope. Right. That's not gonna.
We have to learn to be each other's mirrors. Right. And not be the replicas. Just know that each of us can give input as to what might work or talk to you and talk to an OT and to get ideas, but to not put so much pressure on like, well, this, this input I heard about, this is gonna work. You know, the Internet just loves easy clickable this. You know, I heard this worked for so and so's kick. I'm gonna buy the subscription and you know, or whatever it is, we need to just be open to the fact of trying it. Right.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Like it's okay.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: And it might be a shorter amount of time, you might end up loving something you're cheating something that you never even could have imagined.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I think that having, having, staying curious about your child's behavior and seeing certain things that might work for one, one child. I think it's fair to be curious about that and wonder and give it a shot. But I wouldn't jump to investing a ton of money into something.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Expecting it to change your entire life. So, like having the right expectations for
[00:20:02] Speaker A: things, that's what incomes is all about, because that's what the platform is built on, is that it's never going to be one thing that's going to take the needle and go whoop, right? It's a multiple different little small things that are going to look so different that one variable for you and your child, a weighted blanket after school for an hour while I get to watch their shows might be like, worth its weight in gold for me. My kids, I don't know, I throw a weighted blanket on them at night. That's when they get it, that's when they use it. It's not really a part of our daily routine.
So knowing that there's different things that might be huge for one child, family that might just be a part of yours, might just be a small little bit.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: Exactly. I agree.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: So let's continue on then, I guess about sensory needs, because it looks different in really different environments too. You made the really good point earlier on about, you know, unraveling in school. Looks totally different than a com, than a maybe a behavioral dis. Or sensory dysregulation at home.
So what can those differences illuminate for us?
[00:21:04] Speaker B: I guess so when we're thinking about school, especially if your child is in a traditional, quote, typical classroom. Right.
Those are just by nature. Those are multisensory rooms. And I, I often hear from parents like, my child is so dysregulated after school.
How can I help it be less dysregulating? And there are probably a list of 15 to 20 things that I could recommend for a classroom to adapt, to, modify. Will those things happen? Most likely not. There's a lot of things that you can't, maybe a few things that the teacher will be willing to try, but a lot of it would take, like, structural, like infrastructure changes, like the way that these classrooms echo sounds like there's so. And the overcrowding of classrooms. And even in a special education, a contained classroom, there's still a lot of multiple, vocally stimming kids, multiple teachers in the room, bright light, there's still so much there. And I point this out because, not to make parents feel discouraged, but just to give you another almost validation of that's probably why your child is dysregulated after school. And homeschooling is great for families who can make that happen. Homeschooling is not an option for every single family out there. I often, when I start talking about all of the stimulation from the schools, I often see people comment and say, well, this is why we homeschool. And I'm like, that is fantastic that you're able to do that for your child. I really love that you can do that because you can let them be who they are and you can make your schedule. Unfortunately, not all families can do that. So we're going to, with the situation that we, that these families have, what can we do?
So understanding that the classroom itself is just like a sensory just overload even for our sensory seekers. But also the classroom comes with another set of social norms where there's these rules that have to be listened to, which are demands, which are things that might require our child to suppress their stims to mask their needs.
And so that is vastly different from your home environment.
Ideally when you're, if your parents can allow you to unmask to stim as you need, maybe you have a sensory room, your you can eat comfortably in a quiet space versus being forced in a cafeteria where then it's too loud and overwhelming and then you don't need. And then the afternoon part of your day is even worse because you're hungry now on top of being sensory overload. So those are the tiny little things that, that I think adults, especially if you're a neurotypical adult with no particular, you know, no major sensory differences, it's hard for them to understand and notice that. So just even again, just recognizing that that's a big part of their day is important.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, your, your book is called the Sensory Code. If you could teach parents to decode just three things about their child's nervous system, what would you want us to really start noticing?
[00:24:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I would first start noticing what things. Like if you were to think of your child on like the best day ever, like they were so as regulated as you've ever seen them. Right. I'm not saying 100% regulated, perfectly calm. But for your child, the most regulated you've ever seen them. Try to picture what that looked like. Were they outside?
Were they inside? Was it in the morning? Was their family around? Were they by themselves? Were they under a blanket? Try to pull some of that from your memory if you have that or if you just want to start now and just start noticing. I noticed they are most themselves most in control of their body. Again, relating just to your child, not comparing them to any other child in their space. And try to peel apart what you're noticing there so that's going to at least start giving you clues about what fills their nervous system's regulation bucket, like what they need for that. Right. And if it's outside time, if it's a certain scent, if it's a certain sound, a certain movement, just be very observant about that. The next thing I would. I would tell parents to look at and understand is the things the. The opposite of that. So the. The parts of their day or weak when they seem to be the most dysregulated in the sense of either stronger behaviors or they require a lot more sorts than other times of the week. If this is after school, if this is on a Friday night, if this is the Sunday night, if this is on trash day. There's so many patterns that I think we don't consider until we write those things down. So combining that with of one, what regulates them, two, what seems to be the hardest parts of them is going to be very important. And then the third thing I would probably say that I want them to understand is that it's. It's understanding that dysregulation is cumulative, Meaning that your child could be completely fine one second and then the next second have a huge meltdown. And you'll think it's whatever the event was right before. You're like, so, like, you didn't like when the fan turned on it. Was it the fan or was it. Did I. Did I breathe too? And it's like sometimes it's not the right of the event right before it. Sometimes it's been accumulating throughout the whole day, throughout the whole week even. We see this a lot in the new year in January, February, following months of holidays time change, clothing change, candy, sleep differences, relatives visiting. So this accumulation of dysregulation can happen. So it's not always just one event and then like a meltdown or something, and then it's like cleared. It's. It's really this accumulation of it that you might notice as well those.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: All those things. I also just think we can all take them and notice it with ourselves. I think the best.
I think the best time to any ever integrate and learn about our children tends to end up being one of the best reasons for us to do some take pause and do a little bit more research on those helping us as well, because our children are of us. And I think that whenever we can take in those lessons, it. It ends up becoming even a greater reason to try and implement for your kids. Because when we're healthier and more regulated,
[00:27:30] Speaker B: the better I think a lot of parents listening maybe just have realized they're neurodivergent as well. Maybe they did get diagnosed as a child. But we know that there is a large. There's a hereditary component to neurodivergence. And so I get asked a lot by parents saying, like, how am I supposed to regulate my child when I don't even know how to regulate myself? And I say, that's actually the perfect way to introduce it to your child and say, I'm still learning about my body, and I don't feel good in the afternoon, so I'm gonna try this. Do you want to try it with me? You can try that. I can't really swing, but let me know how that goes. I'm gonna try doing a little dance or listening to this music, and then we'll come together and explore it together. Like, you do not have to portray the image of perfection and regulation to your child. Like, I think showing them your own dysregulated times, calling it out, and even normalizing that, you also might need a fidget or you also might need headphones, or you might need space or quiet. And just calling that out, I think is really powerful. So I think it's actually more of a benefit if you are also neurodivergent as well. It's not a negative or a con at all. I think it's the greatest thing for your child to see and feel connected to you.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Well, Laura, thank you so much. This is for this conversation, for the work that you're doing, and for this amazing new book that has just come out. I think, you know, the inch zone here is, like, so deceptively simple in the shift in the question that we ask is not, you know, these behaviors and constantly wondering about each specific moment of meltdown and what, you know, the thing that came before. It really is. It's what is your body? What is that their body trying to tell me? Through these actions, we get to still intervene. And whether that's through modeling that behavior, modeling that regulation, sharing what the process looks like, and at the end of the day, keeping our children safe. But curiosity, which is. I'm so glad you brought up that word. Curiosity really changes the way we see our children. And when we stay curious to them, it never fails to become. One of the best verbs in life is staying curious.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: I end all of my school assemblies. I do school assemblies where I teach kids about neurodiversity. And the call to action at the end of each assembly is saying, I want you to lead with curiosity instead of judgment. So when we see behaviors in public that look different, something we've never seen before might make us feel uncomfortable. If we hear a kid make a certain feel sound or move their body in a certain way, that looks different, instead of judging that and saying, that's weird. What's wrong with them? We get curious and say, I wonder why they do that. I wonder how that feels for them. I wonder if this is something that feels good for them. Like just starting with that is making a huge difference in the world by encouraging parents to stay curious. Teachers, but also kids among other kids. For sure.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Because when they get to stay curious, that oftentimes is the beginning where of allowing the other child to regulate itself, which is crazy when you think about it.
[00:30:38] Speaker B: It is.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for this incredible conversation. We'll be linking all the ways in which to connect with you and to purchase and receive your new amazing book. And thank you so much for joining here on Inchstones I really appreciate your conversation.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: I had so much fun talking with you. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Fantastic. Well, until next time, here on the Inchstones podcast,
