Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today on the Inchtones podcast, I have Delia McCabe, who is a new friend of mine and also a former clinical psychologist and neuroscientist as well, and a woman that has come into my life and broadened my idea about how nutrition can really be tailored to support the unique needs of neurodivergent children like my two, but also any of those children on the spectrum to encourage healthy gut practices and really just encourage and educate mothers and fathers like myself. So, Delia, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: My pleasure, Sarah. Thank you.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Well, we'll jump right in. What, what role in all of your life's education and your position as an educator, what role do you feel like nutrition really plays in managing sensory sensitivities and emotional regulation, all those behaviors that are aligned with autism that I encounter every day as a mother?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Great question, hard to answer in a sub, but I think if we keep in mind that the brain runs on nutrients and runs on energy, regardless of how it's functioning, it needs those needs to be met optimally.
So a child whose blood glucose is going up and down because of eating ultra processed foods is not going to be a child that can regulate emotions. So just that one thing to keep in mind is keeping blood glucose stable will make life a lot easier for the child and the mother. Now, that goes for all parents, of course, but children who are neurodiverse often battle with their emotion. They battle with dealing with all the sensory input from the environment. So it's even more important for them to keep their blood glucose stable. And with that comes, of course, having a nutrient dense diet, because they are also having to make neurotransmitters from nutrients. They're also having to optimize neuronal connectivity and communication. They also need a lot of antioxidants in their busy brains.
So it's really important to focus on a whole food diet with a minimum amount of preservatives, additives, colorants. Actually cutting them all out would be ideal, including pesticides.
And I know that we will be discussing gut health a little bit later, but pesticides link directly to gut health, so trying to buy as much of your food as organic is also very important.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: All of this is so fascinating because we as autism parents, I know, are for the most part seeking to know the guidebook, right? How can I feed the child? And then when it comes to doing it and implementing it, if I and I have slowly but surely changed those dietary inputs for my children, it can take a long time to even get a bite Taken. Can you speak a little bit to that? Because it's a major hurdle. I think a lot of special needs parents get very triggered by Sarah.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: It's an important one to discuss. And I can promise you that it's not just special needs parents that feel this way. It's all parents. And the research says that it can take between eight to 12 tries to get a child to try something new. And what does that mean for the parent? This means the parent has to be patient. And it's hard to be patient on an ongoing basis with a child that is a challenge and a child that is very fussy, maybe more picky than other children. So just always having the food there and let the child try it, put it in its mouth. You know, children explore with their mouths. But the problem with children that are heightened from a sensory perspective is that they can be very much more sensitive. So one of the things that I had to learn with my son is that there were certain food textures that he didn't like at all.
And this happens for most young children because the part of the brain that develops the capacity to distinguish between what's off and what is actually fine. For example, a tomato. Let's take a tomato.
So you'd have a child that sees a parent eats a tomato. Beautiful mirror neurons working. So the child goes, okay, I'm going to try this. But because that part of the brain isn't fully developed, the brain goes, this is off because it's mushy.
So you have to learn. And that takes time. Now, with a child that's extra sensory, aware, that can be even a longer process and you may never get it right. But what can you do? You can cook the tomatoes, you take the skins off them, you cook them, you turn them into a very nice sauce, and then the child can dip something into that sauce. And they're still getting the great benefits of tomato. Which, interestingly with tomatoes, lycopene is increases in concentration when the tomatoes are cooked. So that's a great antioxidant. You know, those are examples of just for the parent to be really, really patient with the child and try foods in different forms. So if the child doesn't like something that's creamy and mushy, maybe they'll prefer something with a crunch. Find something with a crunch then, and then let them try that. And then dips are wonderful things because children can take this as a, you know, as an activity set. Let's dip the carrot stick or the cucumber stick in. And maybe what they'll do is they'll dip it in and they'll eat the sauce and they won't even eat the crunchy thing that they use to dip into the sauce.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: And that's fine. They're busy experiencing and trying all these different things. And guess what's happening while they're doing that? They're building new neural pathways and they're learning. Their brain is learning without us saying a thing that, guess what? This is safe. Right?
[00:05:35] Speaker A: The idea of curiosity plays such a part in this because I think you cannot divorce innate curiosity of an autistic child versus a typical child. Because I see them staying curious to their environment and to their world and to the foods, staying open to that possibility. It does take a lot of patience. But to your point that the curiosity is not gone from them.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. And what you're saying there is really, really important because we can take that and transfer that to preparing meals.
So one of the things that I suggest to parents who are battling with their children in terms of introducing different foods, prepare a meal with the child, and the child doesn't even have to taste it, but the child is now involved with the food. You know, they're looking at it, they're touching it, they may be washing it, maybe they're chopping it with a bit of a blunt knife. And you're busy helping them stir, pour something into something else. All of that is alerting their brain to the fact that they are busy preparing something that they're going to consume later.
And they may watch you consume that food and not even eat that food, but guess what? They had a hand in making it. So next time maybe they'll be a little bit more curious.
So it is really about being patient and not putting any emotion into this. Because the minute we put an emotion into an activity that we want our children to engage in, they know, ah, this is something that I can press this button for the parent. And all children learn this really quickly. So it's.
You kind of have to be a bit of an actress or an actor as a dad, you know, to say, okay, I'm not going to get emotional about this. This is an experiment that we're busy conducting. And when you have that particular perspective, then you remove the emotion because you know your child is getting enough food, they are getting enough nutrients. It's just that you're trying to increase the repertoire of foods that they're eating. So the patience and the lack of emotion is really important.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: This, for some reason jumps me back to when I was a First time mom and doing baby led weaning and how I was so afraid of the gagging and I realized that that was also a part of it, was that the natural gag reflex and getting her used to the different textures. Would, would there be a parallel in that when it comes to offering these up and offering up and staying patient to the whole food diet with older children, as they have a lot more opinions, they have a lot more built in patterns of their eating?
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Well, it's a good question because we develop our taste buds in our first seven years of life.
And that's because during that time we link food to emotion and we link food to caregiving. And the taste buds are just like other neural pathways.
They become established to particular textures and taste and the amount of sugar and so on.
I think what happens to older children, they've become entrained into eating a particular kind of food and eating it at a particular time and so on. So what we need to do is increase the friction for the things we don't want them to eat and lower the friction for what they should be eating. And that just means having available in the home all the foods that, you know, support their well being and the foods that don't support their wellbeing don't cross your threshold. And that just means that 90% of the time they're going to be exposed to the food that's available.
Have it on a, on a shelf in the fridge that they can reach, let them feel as if they've had some input into where that, that food lives in the fridge and they can chop it up and put it into containers and then they have some kind of sense of ownership over that food.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: They have a choice. They have a choice which is so.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Powerful, very, very powerful. We want to increase their locus of control in relation to the food. So when you go to the store, have a list, these are the kinds of foods that we focus on and then be very strategic about finding the kinds of food that they used to love and finding a healthier alternative, a good swap. And that's really very, very useful.
It reminds me of a story that, an experience that I had and that I often tell about children and their eating habits. When I was still new to the game, I went to my children's school and I gave a chat to the mothers about the kinds of food that they should be feeding their children. You know, and it was a real wake up call for me because I got a call later that often from one of the mums and she was crying and she said she went home and she was so inspired by what I told her that she threw out all the junk food. But when the children came home from school, they saw all their junk food in the bin and they became hysterical. So we want to make that shift, a slow shift, but a steady shift, so you can go to the store, find the replacement and then bring it home. And if the child said, where's that favorite thing that they love? Just go, oh, I didn't pick that up, I picked this up instead.
And then just get them to replace that slowly. The other thing, of course, is to make sure that children are really hungry. And that's just a great natural neurophysiological drive that will drive them to try something new that they maybe haven't tried before because they're actually physically hungry.
And that can be challenging for parents to get children to be physically hungry. But it just means that you're choosing your snacks more mindfully. So the snacks aren't super filling, they're still nutrient dense. But it means when the meal comes around, they actually feel a sense of hunger, which I think is important.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: That's really, that's a really important thing to remember because there's a lot of guessing that has to come along with my children and non speaking autism and how that the permeation of. I know my children best and at the end of the day, I can't really pinpoint exactly where they are on the hunger scale. Right. I can. And especially when they're not in my care and it's, they're coming home from a day at school, I do have to mentally think, okay, they have breakfast as soon as they get there, which if they finish it all, it's this and this. I, I'm told they eat lunch at 11, but they're also in a very dynamic environment where the teachers allow them to bring their sandwich into a sensory playroom. And which is, I believe, wonderful, because I want them to feel like they don't have to be restricted to a chair to eat because of their sensory diet. And it puts a lot of the hunger awareness on the parent. And that can be like, I hope that they're hungry, I hope that they're. How do we scale that? Or how do I maybe lead with my own gut on this?
[00:11:50] Speaker B: It's a good question, Sarah. And I think what you can do is allow them to try and lead a little bit. And you may just experiment with how you do that. So maybe just stretch the meal time maybe for 10 or 15 minutes and see they'll get antsy, you know, their blood glucose will start dipping and their brain will go, whoa, we need food now. And you'll be able to see by a change in behavior when that happens and then you bring the food out. So it's a bit of a trial and error, but just be open to the fact once again being patient, treating it as an experiment, not having a rigid rule in relation to this. Because when their hunger drives, when their hunger drives their search for food, they'll be more open to, to eating what's in front of them.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: I remember someone asking me about Millie and Mac and their restricted if they were on, you know, if they were very restrictive of their diets. And I said, the irony is that Millie is my most well adjusted palate based broad palette. She will you put yellowfin tuna with jalapeno on it? She's like, I mean she truly. And I don't even know sometimes Delia what I did to foster that for her.
Do you think that every child is allowing for certain things to become. Have a more robust acceptance that curiosity is fostered differently?
Because I always wonder how did that happen with her and not her brother?
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Look, that's a good question and I don't think anybody really has an answer to that. You know, in the same way that all non neurodiverse brains are a fingerprint. I think we have the same situation and you may have done something inadvertently. It may have been related to your diet when you were pregnant.
So it's very difficult to pinpoint any specific thing. The only thing is just to keep patient with your son and just keep on investigating what he likes and what he doesn't like and try to give him some control over what he chooses among the choices that you provide.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: Yeah. The stereotype of autistic children being picky eaters is not something I, I mean I experience it in one of the children, but not, not both of them and certainly of. I have a typical 12 year old as well. She's more picky than her sister is. And the beautiful palette of my Millie's lunch every day is something that could be an Instagram page itself. It's like the fresh raspberries and the cucumbers and the, you know, the seeded crackers. I mean she is, she firmly objects to having anything sweet in her lunch. She's like, give me the fruit. And she doesn't speak with her voice and she just knows what her feels good for her body.
And that is just so cool. I think it's so amazing to me that A neurodiverse autistic girl who only speaks with the use of a device has chosen this way of eating for her gut.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Well, it's a fantastic thing, but don't feel bad that you haven't got it right with the other two. It's just. It's really challenging. I had a similar thing with my children. My daughter loved everything, but my son was a lot more picky about what he wanted to eat. And I then realized that he had some sensory challenges, and so I had to adjust for him. But when I looked at the two of them, they were very, very different as well. And now, even as adults, I see that they're still the same. So it may just be something that we can't put our finger on, but we just have to adjust to it and help them. As long as they're getting all the nutrients that they need, Sarah, in one way or another, they'll be fine. We just have to trust in that and trust ourselves that we're doing it to the best of our ability. And as we learn more, we change and we add more and we. We tweak. But that's part of the process of being a parent. Yes.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: I always say, you know, for as big as a challenge might feel for getting my son through, you know, feeding, therapy, and trying new things, it feels like such a just mountain of rocks. I'm pushing up a hill. And then I think, this has happened before. I am not unique. Right. This can be done allowing for the peace to sort of wash over me about, like you say, the patience holding space for 8 to 12 times it being offered, like, allowing myself to know that that's part of the process too.
That's not unique. This is part of how it's engineered to be.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. And as you've said yourself, it's not just neurodiversity that impacts that. So when I work with parents privately, one of the first things I do, regardless of whether the child's neurodiverse or not, I ask them to get the child's zinc status checked. Because zinc status impacts taste bud receptivity. And children who have a low zinc marker, they generally battle with eating kind of like plain or boring food, and so they prefer food that's highly flavored. So getting zinc status checked is really, really important and definitely one of the first steps to do if you have a child that's picky, regardless of whether they're neurodiverse or not.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Right. That's super helpful. Moving on to what we were saying at first that we would get, get into. But the gut brain connection is not only a topic that is personal to me and my growing family. I believe it's finally getting, or at least it's getting much more light in the best way put on it. You know, how, how can dietary changes improve the gut brain connection for children with autism? And where do you see this going for in the current times? Where do you see this, you know, really taking, taking focus?
[00:17:12] Speaker B: I think that I agree with you 100%. It's fabulous that this is now becoming common knowledge that more people are understanding the link. I think part of the challenge is for people to make the changes required to get the gut functioning really well, specifically for children who are neurodiverse, who don't like change and who may not like the particular texture of particular products that can be used to help them. But the first thing to know is that once we get this right, once we get the gut functioning better, we reduce inflammation. And that's the most important thing to keep in mind. So we want to get a good array of the right bacteria in the gut so we can make sure that that mucus that is produced alongside the gut lining is as robust as possible.
Now, what I normally suggest parents do, and I recently worked with a family with a little boy who was not speaking at age appropriate intervals. And I suggested to them that they start giving him probiotics because he was quite okay with a wide variety of food, but he needed to up his good gut bacteria. And what we worked out, we worked out a strategy for him to use the probiotics after a meal in a teaspoon of ice cream. Now the ice cream was good ice cream, it was coconut ice cream, it didn't have any dairy, it was very low in sugar. And we opened up the probiotic, stirred it with the ice cream and he had that after a meal. Now that was fantastic. And it worked really well for that child. The reason we use the probiotic after the meal is because if you use it before the meal, a lot of the stomach acid, the hydrochloric acid, can actually decrease the concentration of the probiotics. So that's the first thing. But we actually want good probiotics all the way from the mouth to the end of the digestive canal. So we do it in the mouth, opening up that capsule. It needs to be a specific type of probiotic, but that works really, really well. And at the same time you increasing the fiber in the diet because the fiber is the prebiotic, the food for the good bacteria. So we're doing these two things at the same time. What you can also do is use vegetable digestive enzymes on a meal. So if the child is really battling with things like constipation or diarrhea, which does happen with neurodiverse children to a higher degree, then you just open the capsule and sprinkle it on the food and it is tasteless, odorless, it's not going to impact the flavor of the food. If the child is concerned with you doing that, then just do it before you serve the food and then the child won't know. But those are just two strategies to start the gut bacteria functioning more optimally. And once you do that for a period of time, most parents start noticing a different, different gut in the gut bacteria via digestive stool movements and so on. Right now the thing is, is to find that particular thing that the child will, will eat with that probiotic and some parents mash a little bit of banana and mix the probiotic with that and then the child has that kind of like celebrate them doing that. So make a big deal of it so that they tie a positive emotion with that particular behavior and then you'll entrench that behaviour. And that's really a very simple way to start the gut working in a better way. The thing also to do is to significantly minimise pesticides. Pesticides are really bad news for the gut and especially when the gut is already sensitive. So if parents can't buy organic produce, simply get the produce that you have when you purchase it and wash it all with some vinegar. So you can put a cup or two of vinegar into a bowl of water and just wash the greens and so on in that and that'll get the surface pesticides off the product. And then of course, if you're going to feed an apple or whatever to the child, just peel the apple if it's not organic, because then you're just getting rid of those surface pesticides as well.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: This is a tangent because you brought up apples. My children could eat an orchard a day. I'm not kidding.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: They.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: I go through a five pound bag of apples almost every other day. Is there something that you've noticed in your own research or in terms of the, the gut, what is drawn, what, what are autistic children drawn to with the apple?
[00:21:35] Speaker B: It may not be anything to do with the gut. It may simply be the perfect mix between something that's crispy and crunchy and sweet and it's not overly sweet, which is great. So there's something about that food that they Love. It could also be that you introduced that food, that apple, at a particular point in time where they were really primed to try something new. And so they've associated that with some kind of an emotional connection or some kind of procedure, some kind of event that you can probably. You'll never recall that, Sarah, but it's a great thing for them to love.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Oh, I always say there's a lot of things that they could have chosen to love. And if I have to own an apple orchard one day or maybe be sponsored by an apple orchard for the podcast, I will take it. I will absolutely take it. I think if I. If I peeled the skin, I would be. I'd be crucified in this home if I peeled the skin off.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: But if they organic, it's fine, then it's not a problem. Just give them a good wash. The peel is good for them. It's extra fiber and extra antioxidants. So it's not as if it's bad, but it's just if it's not organic that it's a challenge.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: You brought up the many different things, the probiotics, the patients alongside, introducing new foods. If you could give one or two very basic directives to a parent who is just starting off on attempting to change their child's diet and to lean more to a. To a whole food diet, what is something that is a. Easing in and saying, you, you know, you can do this. Let's start here. What were some. What would be one or two directives?
[00:23:05] Speaker B: I think the most important thing is we really covered it, is the patience. The patience just to make sure that you have the kinds of foods available that you know are supporting your child's health and finding out what those foods are and making sure that they are available.
So that's really the first thing. Being kind to yourself as the mother, as the parent who's on this adventure is really critical to this whole process because when we have these strict rules and these strict lists and these strict, you know, boundaries around what we allow and what we don't allow, it really makes us more emotional and tense. And that doesn't allow the child to feel calm and relaxed around food.
So that's. That's the one thing. The other thing, of course, is that children always see better than they hear.
So we can't be getting them putting out all the good food for them and then sneaking the bad food.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: It doesn't work. We have to model the kind of behavior that we want to see.
And, you know, we benefit when we do that as well. So that's critically important. We end up feeling better. Our blood glucose is more stable. We can be more patient and more calm about this challenge that we're facing.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: That makes me laugh so hard, Delia, because I find myself, you know, on the go so much, and I'm constantly grabbing, you know, my plain Greek yogurt with my favorite granola and the agave or honey and berries on top. And I'm eating in the car, and I'm like, dude, this is my mother. I am my mother. This is exactly what she would do. And my siblings and I can joke until the cows come home about this, but my sister then will immediately. I'll take a picture. I'll be like, turning into mom. And she's in the car, and she's like, turning into Mom. She modeled that. My mother. Our mother modeled that to us. Where she was. If she was on the go, she was not buying something at a. At a convenience store. She always had her nuts and berries and dark chocolate on the go. And it's. I can make fun of her to her face every day. And then I think, well, it got to us, and we do it now.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. You see, you speaking to something so important there, because firstly, the modeling of the behavior stuck, you know, subconsciously. It was there. The other thing that you speaking to, which you probably didn't realize you were, is the fact that you are prepared so you don't get into the car and go somewhere being hungry. And that's another extremely important thing, because when we get hungry, we make poor food choices. And that's when, you know, children that are hungry will be making such a fuss and getting cranky with each other and getting cranky with you that you'll just buy anything that you see. And that's never a good choice. So being prepared is something else that parents can do, but something else that I just want to mention. And we don't have time to go into this, but it's really, really important. You know, all behavior change is brain change.
That's just the bottom line. And when we're trying to change our behavior, and specifically in a developing brain, it's very important to lay the foundation for neuronal connectivity to be optimized.
Now, this is a huge conversation, but it's very important for parents to realize that consuming the right fats is the foundation of this neural connectivity and laying down habits with ease. So that's something that I addressed with parents when I work with them privately, because when that isn't set and established it's a lot harder to institute behavior change and the ramifications of that are really long reaching. So I just want to mention that so that parents are aware of that fact. The right fats are critical for optimal brain development and that's regardless of whether the child is neurodiverse or not. All brains need optimal amounts of the right fats.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: Would that mean avocados, eggs? Is that like what would be some examples of that?
[00:26:47] Speaker B: No, unfortunately not. Avocados are full of monounsaturated fat and things like coconut oil.
The fat from animals are saturated fats. So I'm not speaking about those, I'm speaking about polyunsaturated fats and those are the omega 3 and the omega 6 fats. And about 95% of the population today is deficient in those fats. And that I think is related to a lot of brain challenges and that is something that has to be addressed and there's not a one size fits all solution to this. So just to give you an idea, when I do a lecture on fats and oils, it's a three hour long lecture.
So it's a really complex conversation but parents just need to keep this in mind that, that neuronal connectivity is critically important and once they get that right, then they can expect really very positive changes in relation to behaviour and in relation to trying new activities and trying new behaviours and also just being more open to new behaviours and shifts in their environment, which I know is a great, is a very important thing for neurodiverse children because they don't generally like any kinds of change. So getting their brain primed for that is important. But yeah, it's a bit of a long conversation.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Sarah, I appreciate the complexities of all that you teach and all that you shared today because I believe that in a. How complex this can be, it reinforces to have patience with ourselves and it reinforces to have patience with our children because it is so complex and it's not, there's not a band aid to put on it and we don't, we don't fix this in a month and at all. And as a, you know, middle aged mother, knowing that I still can make those changes because it is going to be modeled to my children as well. So thank you, thank you so much. I always feel like I'm more open to the world, I'm more knowledgeable about my own health after talking with you and I know that just is going to permeate through this episode for other parents. So thank you very much, as always, for your time.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: It's a pleasure, Sarah. Thank you. All right.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: And until next time on the Inchstones podcast, thanks.
